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Barge Fairy Tale

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Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#501 - 2012-07-26 17:21:56 UTC
I found a way of summing up the entire 'buff the hulk' brigade

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/23999039.jpg

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#502 - 2012-07-26 17:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Richard Desturned wrote:
Miners are just going to whine when it's 6 Catalysts killing their Hulks and Mackinaws instead of 1 or 2. Then CCP will implement more changes to nerf suicide ganking. What's the difference?


If you use 5 or 6 destroyers to destroy one ship kudos to you sir. That's effort, not just easy profit.

No way I would cry after that especially if you bought those destroyers from me.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#503 - 2012-07-26 17:28:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Xercodo wrote:
words


the difference between recons and hulks is that the recons take active measures to protect themselves

call me when a recon can mine 3000 ore/minute or do literally anything that generates wealth

unlike a recon, a hulk pays for itself

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#504 - 2012-07-26 17:31:13 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Kyra Yaken wrote:
So you are admiting that the ganking will stil be going with dessies. Why are you so concern about new tank for miners?


the direction they're taking, treating miners (hiseccers in general, with crimewatch) as a protected class who get to fly ships that were originally meant to be paper-thin but can now tank better than command ships

welcome to EVE Online: Nonconsensual Ganking Eliminated (NGE for short)


Right on mate. I'm a high-seccer and I approve of this message.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#505 - 2012-07-26 17:35:38 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
the difference between recons and hulks is that the recons take active measures to protect themselves

call me when a recon can mine 3000 ore/minute or do literally anything that generates wealth

unlike a recon, a hulk pays for itself


I've heard Pilgrim is quite good for exploration.
gfldex
#506 - 2012-07-26 17:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: gfldex
pussnheels wrote:
my point is that none of you pvp zealots can give a solid answer on why people should not be allowed to afk mine maybe earning 10 mil / hour at beqst all the while you nullseccers can afk your moon goo


Because of the interaction of PLEX and AFK mining. With PLEX one can scale up "AFK" mining to a point where it becomes game breaking. You can't scale up moon mining because there is a hard cap on the moons.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#507 - 2012-07-26 17:39:51 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
I've heard Pilgrim is quite good for exploration.


how much effort is required for exploration compared to, say, warping a hulk to your favorite bookmark and setting the lasers free on three different asteroids for ~max afkness~

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Danny Diamonds
Fabricated Reality
#508 - 2012-07-26 17:40:30 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Danny Diamonds wrote:
Crazy idea, but why not go find challenging targets to shoot? You know, maybe those that are allowed to be fitted with guns? Or maybe haulers with tasty loots? When it takes 6 destroyers to take out a miner, I don't think there will be much support for the whiner. They surely wont have my support (not that it means much; I am just one EVE player).


miners will whine whether it takes 6 catalysts to kill them or 6 vindicators

they will whine about dying until the day CCP hamfistedly removes the ability to aggress a ship in hisec outside of wardecs

and they'll still whine about getting popped by wartargets until that's nuked as well



Yes, they will whine regardless. Much like how you will whine on GD every time any change is proposed, anywhere unless you came up with the idea.
Jed Bobby
Doomheim
#509 - 2012-07-26 17:41:26 UTC
isn't that what the games about? playing how you want to >.>
otherwise we'd all play wow
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#510 - 2012-07-26 17:41:28 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Richard Desturned wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).


so you're saying that it should literally cost half a billion to kill an afk mining hulk, one with nothing fitted as far as a tank, absolutely nothing trained as far as tanking skills and no effort taken to mitigate the risk of being blown up

i'm not trying to put words in your mouth but that sounds like what you're trying to say by "it should cost more to kill a ship than what the ship is worth"


Yes eve is not fair goon.

If you want to kill miners war dec them... And if you cant then advocate for a npc corp nerf like I am...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Danny Diamonds
Fabricated Reality
#511 - 2012-07-26 17:41:29 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
I've heard Pilgrim is quite good for exploration.


how much effort is required for exploration compared to, say, warping a hulk to your favorite bookmark and setting the lasers free on three different asteroids for ~max afkness~



In both cases, more effort is required than ganking a Hulk with a catalyst on a disposable alt.
Arvantis Sauril
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#512 - 2012-07-26 17:42:36 UTC
gfldex wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
my point is that none of you pvp zealots can give a solid answer on why people should not be allowed to afk mine maybe earning 10 mil / hour at beqst all the while you nullseccers can afk your moon goo


Because of the interaction of PLEX and AFK mining. With PLEX one can scale up "AFK" mining to a point where it becomes game breaking. You can scale up moon mining because there is a hard cap on the moons.



Also, it takes a lot of effort to acquire said moon. I don't know how intensive it is to reap the rewards once you have it, but it takes quite a bit of coordination, effort, time, resources to get there in the first place, and no way is it done alone. AFK mining however takes no such commitment.


Both are bad. But one should not be rewarded while the other is punished.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#513 - 2012-07-26 17:42:58 UTC
Danny Diamonds wrote:
In both cases, more effort is required than ganking a Hulk with a catalyst on a disposable alt.


have you ever done this?

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#514 - 2012-07-26 17:43:31 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
words


the difference between recons and hulks is that the recons take active measures to protect themselves

call me when a recon can mine 3000 ore/minute or do literally anything that generates wealth

unlike a recon, a hulk pays for itself


I've used a passive shield tanked pilgrim for ninja ratting in null sec. Since it's drones do most of the work I can fit mostly for tank and not lose out on much.

In the case of the pilgrim and other recons their intended goal is to be support ships that specialize in ewar in PVP. Assuming this, you then have to have fits that are going to balance the tank and ewar effectiveness of those ships. The rapier and huginn are a good example of having to sacrifice effectiveness for tanking. If you get a huginn in your fleet that has only one web fitted cause he used the rest of his mids for tanking then you'll likely ***** him out for not doing his role properly. On the other hand if he fits NOTHING but webs he will likely die the second he gets primaried by anything and his ship results in being less effective for the fleet (especially if they have to reimburse him, he becomes a detriment).

For the argument for "show me a recon that makes money" the huggin is also a great incursion ship, for webbing and TPing the smaller targets so that the DPS BSes can pop them easily.

It could also be argued that any PVP ship can make money from FW and/or being a merc. These are professions that reward that ship for being good at its role.

The Drake is a Lie
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#515 - 2012-07-26 17:44:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
wait you forgot the best part of the story!

Then the "little" miner noticed that the big bad ganker hypocrit with many alts had sooo many passive income flows that he didn't need to do much work at all to make many hundreds of millions more an hour than the "little" miner and in complete safety - leaving him way too much boring time on his hands which the ganker used to take advantage of improvements in all combat ships to gank and gank and gank with ease. The "little" miner knew that mining vessels had not had a single modification to their power/survival since they were released, allowing the combat ships to unfairly become unbalanced against them in the extreme.

The "little" miner had no representation on the CSM so he did the only thing left to him; he voiced his concerns on the forums... to which the angry and hypocritical ganker posted, "you mad bro, you might as well bio-scrap your sorry character and go play ::insert name of childs game here::" The hypocritical ganker made a point of flaunting every advantage they gained over time with the assistance of their representation on the CSM, which nerfed income for the "little" miner and ramped up huge profits for the ganker... claiming to live on "little" miner tears even though everyone knew that a diet of tears was completely unheatlhy even for gankers.

Finally, the big bad ganker so over played his hand that it became obvious to all who looked on that the "little" miner was being unfairly treated.. most of his freinds had left the game and the eve population had shrunk due to the fact that nearly 70% of the population of eve had been made up or "little" miners.

The fairy stepped in to balance the unfairness the best she could, reducing the hypocritical gankers passive income a little and giving the "little" miner an overdue balance in ship design... The hypocritical ganker cried big elephant tears for weeks and made up stories casting miners in a negative light in order to try to win a nerf for he and all the other hypocritical gankers and other evil smelling packs like the nerfherders and and the smack-griefers.

Somewhere in her magic castle, the fairy isn't even finished casting her spell and already the crying ganker is complaining bitterly in his maudlin sobbing madness. How will it end..? The ganker, being a vindictive sort, will plan and plot his revenge as the hot tears run down his dirty face.. but we'll have to see what happens next.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#516 - 2012-07-26 17:44:46 UTC
Danny Diamonds wrote:
In both cases, more effort is required than ganking a Hulk with a catalyst on a disposable alt.
Since the latter is impossible without the Hulk pilot's permission, I find that pretty hard to believe…
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#517 - 2012-07-26 17:45:59 UTC
Perhaps someone could refresh this old timer's memory...

I remember long ago CCP boosted the shield, armor, and structure for all ships in the game. Were the mining ships included?

About a year or two ago, CCP removed the -25% rate of fire from the Destroyer class ships. Recently and as stated numerous times during this past Alliance Tournament, frigates were boosted - especially the Merlin.

So has anyone done number crunching comparisons based on the old stats to the new stats? I can understand if CCP boosted the mining ships in a similar percentage. But based upon what I saw in terms of numbers thrown out there, my first thoughts besides the obvious ones of disbelief were CCP just made the Orca irrelavent short of being a booster ship.

I do apologize if all of this has been discussed, but 27 pages to peruse will be quite daunting for a semi-interested reader.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#518 - 2012-07-26 17:46:26 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
how much effort is required for exploration compared to, say, warping a hulk to your favorite bookmark and setting the lasers free on three different asteroids for ~max afkness~


I don't know. You should ask from Ishtar pilots because it's more afk friendly than Pilgrim.

And, mining with couple of Hulks and max Orca boost is far from "max afkness".
Hicksimus
Torgue
#519 - 2012-07-26 17:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Hicksimus
Exploration pays me roughly 10x as much as hulk mining arkonor does. Even a C1 site that takes me 10-15 minutes in a ship worth 1/5th the price of a hulk hull pays me 20-80m isk while the arkonor hulk at 5x the price pays me 30m isk per hour. For that matter I can make triple that ratting in a 0.2 system in an oracle if I don't get a faction spawn. If somebody wants to afk hulk mine veldspar all day and not be ganked I can't see why they shouldn't be able to. At the end of the day letting them do this gives me cheaper ships to pvp with anyway.

Edit: Max AFK'ness is moon mining.

Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you? Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
hungrymanbreakfast
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#520 - 2012-07-26 17:47:46 UTC  |  Edited by: hungrymanbreakfast
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

People don't throw away Isk on Suicide ganking like miners seem to think they do. It's done for profit, and Suicide Ganking has always been done for profit (whether Freighters, Industrials, or Barges).

To be fair, either you are mistaken or some of your peers are lying.



Goonswarm Propaganda not being totally accurate about their motives? Whaaaaaa??? Roll


Anyway, I will qualify it. It's only done on a large scale for profit. How many not-for-profit Freighter ganks happen?

It's not simply limited to the words of Goonswarm, perhaps zealous individuals that believe the propaganda? But then that still makes it true even if self fulfilling. Also in the case of freighters the damage necessary to kill the base hull will cost well beyond the rewards the wreck will leave. The same isn't true of any of the current exhumers. So perhaps that is a bad example. Maybe transport ships?


The new Skiff's going to have 2/3rds the EHP of a Freighter.

How many properly tanked Hulks do you see in lossmails in 1.0 space (where you need 3 Nados at a cost of 200m)?


Lots. 2 nados take down a max tank hulk kiddo. Just fit some DPS implants and pew - pew - *BAYSPLOSIONS* - hulk dead

Also notice how max tank hulks need max tanking skills? Without you get a crappy tank. With less than max tanking skills someone can easily fit a tank on a bc or bs and also have a full rack of magstabs/heatsinks/gyrostabs. Try fitting a tank and getting even 1 mining laser upgrade online. Not happening.
I'm happy that CCP has finally done something about this. Ganks will still happen and regularly but we will have to find out how many thrashers we need again :)