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Ancillary Shield Booster use should be nerfed

First post
Author
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#141 - 2012-07-24 21:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Dez Affinity wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
This is funny, people are acting like some great sea of 1v1s are being ruined by ASBs.


Its a myth, everybody blobs, and the ASB is the small gang blob equalizer. I roam about every night for 2-3 hours a night around lowsec, and what do i see, groups of 3-4 people looking for easy kills.

What has the ASB done to that? Oh, what, those 3-4 people are now getting curb stomped by a lone ship or not getting the kills they wanted at all?

Oh, damn...


Guess it sucks to be a victim of the environment you created.



Hey Grath, what happens if all 3-4 of those people have asbs you have to chew through. OK good talk.


Well if my name was dez affinity i'd use my neutral repping alt, my falcon alt, and my netural scout to see all that coming and get around it.

EDIT: And lets be honest when you were movin in your neutral booster alt you'd have seen them and avoided it anyway.


Dez Affinity, 5 boxing solo pvp and crying since mid 2012

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

AndrewBot89
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2012-07-24 22:06:40 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Well if my name was dez affinity i'd use my neutral repping alt, my falcon alt, and my netural scout to see all that coming and get around it.

EDIT: And lets be honest when you were movin in your neutral booster alt you'd have seen them and avoided it anyway.


Dez Affinity, 5 boxing solo pvp and crying since mid 2012


And let's say you don't have those alts, what then? Try not to slip into ad hominem, it does nothing to advance your argument.
Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#143 - 2012-07-24 22:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dynast
ASBs ruining small-scale PvP? Really not seein' it. New fits, new counters, a little more 'burden of knowledge' to recognize that there are a few ships that will probably be ASB fit and you better not engage 'em unless you can handle that, sure. The only true problem is the pussy neutral alt, killboard efficiency, falcon, titan bridge attitude that permeates much of EVE.

I mean c'mon now, things change; it wasn't that long ago that everyone was nano fit and everything else was sub-optimal. Or everyone was armor buffered and everything else was sub-optimal. Or everyone had ECM drones and everything else was sub-optimal. Or everyone was in a drake and everything else was sub-optimal. Some got nerfed, some didn't, and life went on.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#144 - 2012-07-24 22:47:54 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
Cearain wrote:
[quote=Mariner6][quote=Cearain]


I think you are a bit too worked up about semantics. I disagree with your narrow catagorizations. Slaves are passive tank implants even though they add to armor which does not regenerate. But whatever.

There were quite a few viable active armor tank pvp ships. Triple rep and dual rep myrm. The dual rep did not require 2 midslots. Dual rep incursus, dual rep sfi, and various dominix fits not to mention all the tech 2 amarr and gallente ships.

The issue now is really whether the ancillary shield booster is so overpowered that all these fits are obsolete. I don't think the proper response is to say well then lets give armor ships an equally overpowered module so armor and shield are the same!


I think that just tramples the nuanced considerations in how you fit ships and gives you the dumbed down choice of if under 10 in your gang then "ancillary shield booster or ancillary armor booster take your pick they are the same." Roll

Like I said right now as a mainly solo pilot I use the asbs allot. And there will need to be some fine tuning either with the mod directly or with how armor tanking works. But just creating and equally overpowered armor tanking mod is hamfisted and will dumb the game down.


Ok, obviously we are not going to agree on it but nor do I feel like having a pissing match about it. I don't think it will dumb the game down, but you know what if that's what you want to call it, then fine. Dumb the game down and give armor ships a more viable armor rep system. It would be great to have a module for armor tanking ships that would provide boosts without also having to sacrifice mid slots to cap boosters and also suffer the danger of neuting. Its the only way to balance things if the ASB is going to remain as it is. Which I'm fine with.



I think they can balance things a bit yes. But the idea of just "balancing" this by adding a aab is a bad idea.


People where fitting all sorts of tanks on ships for pvp. You had shield buffer tanks with the drake and hurricane and several other ships inlcuding rupture etc. You had a few active shield tanks with the harpy, cyclone and the maelstrom. (although I agree this catagory was lacking and most in need of something) You had active armor with myrm, Bruytix, domi, sfi, incursus, deimos, ishkur, vengence etc. You had buffer armor tanks with many t1 cruisers jamming a 1600 plate on as did many battleships and other ships. We even had a few that had both buffer and active tank like dual rep myrm and the jaguar with a small shield repper.

So we had a large variety tanks to choose from. Now? Well, it appears they all (at least cruiser and above) are better with the asb. That is the potential problem. I think we need to give it some time but in the mean time I am using them every chance I get.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2012-07-24 23:00:38 UTC
AndrewBot89 wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Well if my name was dez affinity i'd use my neutral repping alt, my falcon alt, and my netural scout to see all that coming and get around it.

EDIT: And lets be honest when you were movin in your neutral booster alt you'd have seen them and avoided it anyway.


Dez Affinity, 5 boxing solo pvp and crying since mid 2012


And let's say you don't have those alts, what then? Try not to slip into ad hominem, it does nothing to advance your argument.


The point is, why is one kind of asshattery better than another? Why is it ok to run around with 5 accounts that use falcon alts and neutral reppers and afk boosting alts but its not ok to have a powerful burst tank on something?


Its all the same crap, this myth about the great small gang pvp arenas of eve and their decline is all a load of crap by people that are either unable to gank, or being ganked, small gang pvp has always revolved around who has more ships, and more firepower, just like blob warfare, only the numbers used are different.

You're not outnumbered by 20 or 30, you're outnumbered by 2 or 3 and the outcome is usually the same.

If you want to cry about whats right and fair in EVE your trail should start well before the ASB, if anything, its tipping the balance BACK towards the TRUE lone player.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Lexa Hellfury
Perkone
Caldari State
#146 - 2012-07-25 01:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexa Hellfury
Grath Telkin wrote:
The point is, why is one kind of asshattery better than another? Why is it ok to run around with 5 accounts that use falcon alts and neutral reppers and afk boosting alts but its not ok to have a powerful burst tank on something?


Its all the same crap, this myth about the great small gang pvp arenas of eve and their decline is all a load of crap by people that are either unable to gank, or being ganked, small gang pvp has always revolved around who has more ships, and more firepower, just like blob warfare, only the numbers used are different.

You're not outnumbered by 20 or 30, you're outnumbered by 2 or 3 and the outcome is usually the same.

If you want to cry about whats right and fair in EVE your trail should start well before the ASB, if anything, its tipping the balance BACK towards the TRUE lone player.


So your new counter-argument is "people in eve are blobbing faggots so why even bother balancing the ASB"?

Your argument has slowly degenerated from "no no, it's fine, really" to "lol other things are gay, too"
Katalci
Spectral Demons
#147 - 2012-07-25 02:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Katalci
Teinyhr wrote:
I think AT would benefit a lot more from banning/nerfing ECM than ASB.

*hides from the rotten tomatoes*

Edit2:
Granted ECM hasn't made as bothersomely boring matches this year than it used to in some previous tournaments.

Hell no; some ECM matches had me on the edge of my seat (HUN Vargurs vs. PL Widows was incredible). Just because people fail to counter it, making for a boring match where one side just gets stomped, it doesn't mean that it should be removed.

Markus Reese wrote:
It isn't so much nerf, but what is needed is instead of booster giving free boost. it should just reduce the cap needed per cycle.

Hello, you have missed the entire point of the module, which is to remove the need to use up a midslot for a cap booster.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#148 - 2012-07-25 02:49:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Lexa Hellfury wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
The point is, why is one kind of asshattery better than another? Why is it ok to run around with 5 accounts that use falcon alts and neutral reppers and afk boosting alts but its not ok to have a powerful burst tank on something?


Its all the same crap, this myth about the great small gang pvp arenas of eve and their decline is all a load of crap by people that are either unable to gank, or being ganked, small gang pvp has always revolved around who has more ships, and more firepower, just like blob warfare, only the numbers used are different.

You're not outnumbered by 20 or 30, you're outnumbered by 2 or 3 and the outcome is usually the same.

If you want to cry about whats right and fair in EVE your trail should start well before the ASB, if anything, its tipping the balance BACK towards the TRUE lone player.


So your new counter-argument is "people in eve are blobbing faggots so why even bother balancing the ASB"?

Your argument has slowly degenerated from "no no, it's fine, really" to "lol other things are gay, too"


No, my argument is that your relative perspective on whats broken depends on what thing you're abusing at the time.

I dont find them broken, but then, I dont use netural booster alts or reppers or falcon alts or any of the other gay **** that long ago killed small and solo pvp, but its funny to see the rest of the ninnies come cry about something cramping their style when they infact use a ton of broken crap on their own.

I mean, if it bothers you that much, just quit, remember this is a game, and if you're not having fun you shouldn't play it.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy
No Forks Given
#149 - 2012-07-25 03:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Casidy
The Bazzalisk wrote:
Ginseng Jita wrote:
ASB's was one of the best things added to the game. It gives another option to teams on what ships they should field and how they should fit them.
I would reword that as 'removing options' - I might be willing to bet that ASB Cyclone/Sleipnir/Vargur are the most common ships this tournament. There is no reason to use another option because the ASB tank combined with a logi to fill your reload time makes the tank so strong that there is not a lot that can deal with it without your dps ship dying before the enemy ASB ship is dead.

Also, that setup we saw a few days ago with 10 T1 battlecruisers - cyclones, feroxes and....brutixes (I think? Can't remember. Doesn't matter.) The 4 cyclones and 4 feroxes with ASBs would take so long to kill with almost a minute straight of ASB boosting on each ship that even if the ASB ships were doing no dps they would still all survive because you have to spend a whole minute wearing down the ASB charges and then even more time actually killing them. The match would be over before they died.


What? Please recount how many asb equipped sleipners and cyclones we killed with just the dps of three tengus in the Suddenly Spaceships match, not to mention how many teams just brought tons of dps and shot straight through them. Which tournament were you watching?

.

Tobias Sjodin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#150 - 2012-07-26 17:30:34 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Dez Affinity wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
This is funny, people are acting like some great sea of 1v1s are being ruined by ASBs.


Its a myth, everybody blobs, and the ASB is the small gang blob equalizer. I roam about every night for 2-3 hours a night around lowsec, and what do i see, groups of 3-4 people looking for easy kills.

What has the ASB done to that? Oh, what, those 3-4 people are now getting curb stomped by a lone ship or not getting the kills they wanted at all?

Oh, damn...


Guess it sucks to be a victim of the environment you created.



Hey Grath, what happens if all 3-4 of those people have asbs you have to chew through. OK good talk.


Well if my name was dez affinity i'd use my neutral repping alt, my falcon alt, and my netural scout to see all that coming and get around it.

EDIT: And lets be honest when you were movin in your neutral booster alt you'd have seen them and avoided it anyway.


Dez Affinity, 5 boxing solo pvp and crying since mid 2012



Naw, Dez adapts like the rest of those who play this game. He'll have his ASB-ships too, in fact that's the whole thing about FOTM, it works fine until "everyone" starts using it, and when everyone is using it (and no one is using anything else) it becomes a zero-sum game, Falcon alts or not. The only reason why it is fun now to use ASB's is because a lot of people aren't familiar with it and dying in droves with questionmarks over their faces. A lot of duders are still adapting to **** that occured four years ago when buffer armor tanks came in fashion, or just prior to that when the spr "wololol 50mil tank 900dps indefinitely & neuts-immune"-drake was popular. These duders will still die to a bucket with a pea shooter.

There are a lot of broken things in EVE, and tossing one more on the pile is not going to fix anything. The fact that cheap **** easily wins over expensive **** is b0rkened. If it was some clever setup that required micro-management of some sort to work, then fine. But there is none required here.

Ronald Reagan: I do not like Sweden, they support communism. Minister: Sir, but Sweden are anti-communist, Sir.  Ronald Reagan: I do not care what kind of communists they are.

Lazarus Telraven
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#151 - 2012-07-26 18:22:44 UTC
Having done quite a bit of solo roaming lately, I think the only real issue with the ASB currently is that it has TOO many charges, if they take away 2-3 charges from it then I think it would be fairly balanced
Klown Walk
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#152 - 2012-07-26 22:46:14 UTC
T3 links needs nerfs if anything.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#153 - 2012-07-27 13:07:57 UTC
T3 links are fine mostly, interdiction one is a little bit over the top now but its not game breaking. The only people I see crying about them are the people who don't want to have to go to the effort of bringing their own link ship.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#154 - 2012-08-17 14:27:15 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
This is funny, people are acting like some great sea of 1v1s are being ruined by ASBs.


Its a myth, everybody blobs, and the ASB is the small gang blob equalizer. I roam about every night for 2-3 hours a night around lowsec, and what do i see, groups of 3-4 people looking for easy kills.

What has the ASB done to that? Oh, what, those 3-4 people are now getting curb stomped by a lone ship or not getting the kills they wanted at all?

Oh, damn...


Guess it sucks to be a victim of the environment you created.



This has got to be a troll post as you've managed to destroy your own argument within a few sentences. "ASB are fine because it allows me to fight 4 people while solo and they are trying to gank solo players so it's fair." If not a troll i just don't understand how this situation could be reasonably mistaken for balanced.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2012-08-17 15:27:59 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
[quote=Grath Telkin]

This has got to be a troll post as you've managed to destroy your own argument within a few sentences. "ASB are fine because it allows me to fight 4 people while solo and they are trying to gank solo players so it's fair." If not a troll i just don't understand how this situation could be reasonably mistaken for balanced.


Yea I mean honestly numbers should always be the only thing in EVE that matters what the hells wrong with me right?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#156 - 2012-08-17 15:43:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Grath Telkin wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
[quote=Grath Telkin]

This has got to be a troll post as you've managed to destroy your own argument within a few sentences. "ASB are fine because it allows me to fight 4 people while solo and they are trying to gank solo players so it's fair." If not a troll i just don't understand how this situation could be reasonably mistaken for balanced.


Yea I mean honestly numbers should always be the only thing in EVE that matters what the hells wrong with me right?


Stop over simplifying things.... 4v1 could always be done prior to asb, however it took specific flying and required for specific counter fits to not be present. The thing about the 4v1 situation you talk about with asb is that it's a brawling situation... Never should 1 person of similar ship class be able to take 4 other similarly skilled players in a throw down brawl situation especially when looking at the low relative cost of these asb fits... I'm sorry but saying something stupid like "Yea I mean honestly numbers should always be the only thing in EVE that matters what the hells wrong with me right?" is a deplorable fail counter argument at best. No where did i ever mention that eve should be strictly based around numbers... Stop grasping at straws garth, you're not good at it.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#157 - 2012-08-17 15:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
[quote=Grath Telkin]

This has got to be a troll post as you've managed to destroy your own argument within a few sentences. "ASB are fine because it allows me to fight 4 people while solo and they are trying to gank solo players so it's fair." If not a troll i just don't understand how this situation could be reasonably mistaken for balanced.


Yea I mean honestly numbers should always be the only thing in EVE that matters what the hells wrong with me right?


Stop over simplifying things.... 4v1 could always be done prior to asb, however it took specific flying and required for specific counter fits to not be present. The thing about the 4v1 situation you talk about with asb is that it's a brawling situation... Never should 1 person of similar ship class be able to take 4 other similarly skilled players in a throw down brawl situation especially when looking at the low relative cost of these asb fits... I'm sorry but saying something stupid like "Yea I mean honestly numbers should always be the only thing in EVE that matters what the hells wrong with me right?" is a deplorable fail counter argument at best. No where did i ever mention that eve should be strictly based around numbers... Stop grasping at straws garth, you're not good at it.


You didnt have to use all those words to come up with "numbers should beat everything".

And no, I wont stop oversimplifying it, because you contradict yourself in your own statement by saying that it could be done before the ASB then later you say it shouldn't ever be possible.

Its ok that you want numbers to rule over all, but just be man enough to admit it openly and not hide it behind a wall of double talk and words

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#158 - 2012-08-17 15:51:12 UTC
Also how can you have specific counter fits in a 4 on 1 fight? You have one ship, how frickin specific can you get?


I think you got owned by some scrublord in an ASB ship and came to angry post about it today, so while you rant rage and complain I'll just sit here counter posting while killing little youngins with their ASBs in FW.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#159 - 2012-08-17 16:08:12 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

And no, I wont stop oversimplifying it, because you contradict yourself in your own statement by saying that it could be done before the ASB then later you say it shouldn't ever be possible.



Re read again please, you will notice that i stated it could be done prior to asbs so long as specific counters were not present. Also you will notice that the 4v1s i'm talking about being broken post asb patch is in regards to "brawling" not kiting which would have been the most applicable way to win a 4v1 prior to asb. As far as 4v1 brawling of similar ship class/pilots prior to asb it was only really achievable through the use offgrids, boosters, and faction/dead space gear. Also this would require the lack again ofspecific counters being present, in the case of these pre asb super tanks these were nuets...

With the introduction of asb the primary counter to these super tanks is no longer available, further more the lack of required cap booster means you have extra slots available for either a back up asb or invulns/boost amps. Currently the only real viable counter to an asb super tank is to bring more dps/people... The whole "wait for his charges to run out" is again dependent on the dps fielded.

As for the whole me getting owned by some asb scrublord... Naaa man, i'm not about it for personal interest, i'm about it for the health of eve. Current asb mechanics are not healthy for eve by any stretch of argument and will most certainly be nerfed within a years time.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#160 - 2012-08-17 16:36:51 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

And no, I wont stop oversimplifying it, because you contradict yourself in your own statement by saying that it could be done before the ASB then later you say it shouldn't ever be possible.



Re read again please, you will notice that i stated it could be done prior to asbs so long as specific counters were not present. Also you will notice that the 4v1s i'm talking about being broken post asb patch is in regards to "brawling" not kiting which would have been the most applicable way to win a 4v1 prior to asb. As far as 4v1 brawling of similar ship class/pilots prior to asb it was only really achievable through the use offgrids, boosters, and faction/dead space gear. Also this would require the lack again ofspecific counters being present, in the case of these pre asb super tanks these were nuets...

With the introduction of asb the primary counter to these super tanks is no longer available, further more the lack of required cap booster means you have extra slots available for either a back up asb or invulns/boost amps. Currently the only real viable counter to an asb super tank is to bring more dps/people... The whole "wait for his charges to run out" is again dependent on the dps fielded.

As for the whole me getting owned by some asb scrublord... Naaa man, i'm not about it for personal interest, i'm about it for the health of eve. Current asb mechanics are not healthy for eve by any stretch of argument and will most certainly be nerfed within a years time.


Interesting, I see ASB fitted ships die every night, I wonder what in the world you're talking about.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.