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26/7/12 mining barge changes.
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Dave Stark
#1 - 2012-07-26 13:01:20 UTC
50m3 drone bay on the skiff - spot on ccp, good job.

mackinaw/retriever ore bay changes. hideously wrong.
the difference is 3.125k m3. that's less than a full cycle. for the massive price difference? either restore the ore bay of the mack, or nerf the retriever more. there is no way that less than 1 cycle of difference justifies the cost difference.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#2 - 2012-07-26 13:07:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconyx
Dave stark wrote:
50m3 drone bay on the skiff - spot on ccp, good job.

mackinaw/retriever ore bay changes. hideously wrong.
the difference is 3.125k m3. that's less than a full cycle. for the massive price difference? either restore the ore bay of the mack, or nerf the retriever more. there is no way that less than 1 cycle of difference justifies the cost difference.



Actually look at the retriever it was reduced to 22,500
Making it a 8,750 difference now
Dave Stark
#3 - 2012-07-26 13:09:54 UTC
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
50m3 drone bay on the skiff - spot on ccp, good job.

mackinaw/retriever ore bay changes. hideously wrong.
the difference is 3.125k m3. that's less than a full cycle. for the massive price difference? either restore the ore bay of the mack, or nerf the retriever more. there is no way that less than 1 cycle of difference justifies the cost difference.



Actually look at the retriever it was reduced to 22,500




which is then multiplied by 1.25 for the mining barge V skill, which is a prerequisite for the mackinaw, so if you can fly a mackinaw the difference between the ships ore bay is too small to justify purchasing one.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#4 - 2012-07-26 13:12:06 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
50m3 drone bay on the skiff - spot on ccp, good job.

mackinaw/retriever ore bay changes. hideously wrong.
the difference is 3.125k m3. that's less than a full cycle. for the massive price difference? either restore the ore bay of the mack, or nerf the retriever more. there is no way that less than 1 cycle of difference justifies the cost difference.



Actually look at the retriever it was reduced to 22,500




which is then multiplied by 1.25 for the mining barge V skill, which is a prerequisite for the mackinaw, so if you can fly a mackinaw the difference between the ships ore bay is too small to justify purchasing one.


You have to look at the rest of the ship to decide. Yield + Tank
It is closer to the setup of the the skiff / proc now though as far as ore holds
Dave Stark
#5 - 2012-07-26 13:16:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
50m3 drone bay on the skiff - spot on ccp, good job.

mackinaw/retriever ore bay changes. hideously wrong.
the difference is 3.125k m3. that's less than a full cycle. for the massive price difference? either restore the ore bay of the mack, or nerf the retriever more. there is no way that less than 1 cycle of difference justifies the cost difference.



Actually look at the retriever it was reduced to 22,500




which is then multiplied by 1.25 for the mining barge V skill, which is a prerequisite for the mackinaw, so if you can fly a mackinaw the difference between the ships ore bay is too small to justify purchasing one.


You have to look at the rest of the ship to decide. Yield + Tank
It is closer to the setup of the the skiff / proc now though as far as ore holds



the yield between the two is just the exhumer level, and with exhumer I being the requirement, there's a 1% yield difference.
the tank is about the only difference between the two ships. however i'm not sure that's a valid criteria, this isn't a skiff. besides if you're in high sec just stick to a 1.0 system where no rats spawn and save yourself the isk upgrading to a mackinaw.

edit; just took a retriever on tq to a 0.7 belt with 3 rats, light drones dealt with the rats before i got 10% in to shields.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#6 - 2012-07-26 13:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconyx
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
50m3 drone bay on the skiff - spot on ccp, good job.

mackinaw/retriever ore bay changes. hideously wrong.
the difference is 3.125k m3. that's less than a full cycle. for the massive price difference? either restore the ore bay of the mack, or nerf the retriever more. there is no way that less than 1 cycle of difference justifies the cost difference.



Actually look at the retriever it was reduced to 22,500




which is then multiplied by 1.25 for the mining barge V skill, which is a prerequisite for the mackinaw, so if you can fly a mackinaw the difference between the ships ore bay is too small to justify purchasing one.


You have to look at the rest of the ship to decide. Yield + Tank
It is closer to the setup of the the skiff / proc now though as far as ore holds



the yield between the two is just the exhumer level, and with exhumer I being the requirement, there's a 1% yield difference.
the tank is about the only difference between the two ships. however i'm not sure that's a valid criteria, this isn't a skiff. besides if you're in high sec just stick to a 1.0 system where no rats spawn and save yourself the isk upgrading to a mackinaw.

edit; just took a retriever on tq to a 0.7 belt with 3 rats, light drones dealt with the rats before i got 10% in to shields.


T1 High-sec
T2 Null

Haven't checked with the changes but currently putting a Mack into a belt (null) without a permatank is a great way to get NPC splatted.

It is possible to permatank a Mack right now, but at a very high cost of faction fits and at the cost of yield.
And it is a serious risk at doing that considering you are just sitting there waiting to get killed.
SO I had only one fitted as such.

Maybe someone will see how they fair now in null if I don't get to it first.
Dave Stark
#7 - 2012-07-26 13:40:30 UTC
Draconyx wrote:


T1 High-sec
T2 Null

Haven't checked with the changes but currently putting a Mack into a belt (null) without a permatank is a great way to get NPC splatted.

It is possible to permatank a Mack right now, but at a very high cost of faction fits and at the cost of yield.
And it is a serious risk at doing that considering you are just sitting there waiting to get killed.
SO I had only one fitted as such.

Maybe someone will see how they fair now in null if I don't get to it first.


depending on how fast you can kill the rats, it's often more isk/hour to kill them rather than try and perma tank them. especially with high end minerals dropping in price over the last week or so.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#8 - 2012-07-26 13:44:30 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:


T1 High-sec
T2 Null

Haven't checked with the changes but currently putting a Mack into a belt (null) without a permatank is a great way to get NPC splatted.

It is possible to permatank a Mack right now, but at a very high cost of faction fits and at the cost of yield.
And it is a serious risk at doing that considering you are just sitting there waiting to get killed.
SO I had only one fitted as such.

Maybe someone will see how they fair now in null if I don't get to it first.


depending on how fast you can kill the rats, it's often more isk/hour to kill them rather than try and perma tank them. especially with high end minerals dropping in price over the last week or so.


Umm I was talking ICE Mining cause that is how they are used now.
Granted after the patch they will do normal ore , hence time to test there tanking in Null again .
Dave Stark
#9 - 2012-07-26 13:46:26 UTC
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:


T1 High-sec
T2 Null

Haven't checked with the changes but currently putting a Mack into a belt (null) without a permatank is a great way to get NPC splatted.

It is possible to permatank a Mack right now, but at a very high cost of faction fits and at the cost of yield.
And it is a serious risk at doing that considering you are just sitting there waiting to get killed.
SO I had only one fitted as such.

Maybe someone will see how they fair now in null if I don't get to it first.


depending on how fast you can kill the rats, it's often more isk/hour to kill them rather than try and perma tank them. especially with high end minerals dropping in price over the last week or so.


Umm I was talking ICE Mining cause that is how they are used now.
Granted after the patch they will do normal ore , hence time to test there tanking in Null again .



either way it's intended role does not get a sufficient upgrade. less than 1 cycle of ore space is not an upgrade really. it needs to be addressed. whether that means nerfing the ret or buffing the mack, it needs doing.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#10 - 2012-07-26 14:08:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconyx
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:


T1 High-sec
T2 Null

Haven't checked with the changes but currently putting a Mack into a belt (null) without a permatank is a great way to get NPC splatted.

It is possible to permatank a Mack right now, but at a very high cost of faction fits and at the cost of yield.
And it is a serious risk at doing that considering you are just sitting there waiting to get killed.
SO I had only one fitted as such.

Maybe someone will see how they fair now in null if I don't get to it first.


depending on how fast you can kill the rats, it's often more isk/hour to kill them rather than try and perma tank them. especially with high end minerals dropping in price over the last week or so.


Umm I was talking ICE Mining cause that is how they are used now.
Granted after the patch they will do normal ore , hence time to test there tanking in Null again .



either way it's intended role does not get a sufficient upgrade. less than 1 cycle of ore space is not an upgrade really. it needs to be addressed. whether that means nerfing the ret or buffing the mack, it needs doing.


Well they are bottomed out on the retriever now.
They reduce the cargo hold any more and it is no longer worth it unless you use it for ice mining only which CCP was trying to change obviously.
Better to just have a hauler.
Personally I don't think it was the least bit over powered with the initial numbers.
The people that are going be most effected by T1 barges like the retriever are the newer players
If CCP messes things up there then they will move on to other things.
Which is bad for long term mineral prices as older players eventually leave the game.

The real difference between a T1 and T2 ship should be tank and slots to fit that tank.
the difference in yield should be very small as the pay out is in location.
High-sec small profit / Null Huge profit
Dave Stark
#11 - 2012-07-26 14:37:53 UTC
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:


T1 High-sec
T2 Null

Haven't checked with the changes but currently putting a Mack into a belt (null) without a permatank is a great way to get NPC splatted.

It is possible to permatank a Mack right now, but at a very high cost of faction fits and at the cost of yield.
And it is a serious risk at doing that considering you are just sitting there waiting to get killed.
SO I had only one fitted as such.

Maybe someone will see how they fair now in null if I don't get to it first.


depending on how fast you can kill the rats, it's often more isk/hour to kill them rather than try and perma tank them. especially with high end minerals dropping in price over the last week or so.


Umm I was talking ICE Mining cause that is how they are used now.
Granted after the patch they will do normal ore , hence time to test there tanking in Null again .



either way it's intended role does not get a sufficient upgrade. less than 1 cycle of ore space is not an upgrade really. it needs to be addressed. whether that means nerfing the ret or buffing the mack, it needs doing.


Well they are bottomed out on the retriever now.
They reduce the cargo hold any more and it is no longer worth it unless you use it for ice mining only which CCP was trying to change obviously.
Better to just have a hauler.
Personally I don't think it was the least bit over powered with the initial numbers.
The people that are going be most effected by T1 barges like the retriever are the newer players
If CCP messes things up there then they will move on to other things.
Which is bad for long term mineral prices as older players eventually leave the game.

The real difference between a T1 and T2 ship should be tank and slots to fit that tank.
the difference in yield should be very small as the pay out is in location.
High-sec small profit / Null Huge profit


the difference shouldn't be tank; they're not combat ships. the difference should be in how good they are at fulfilling the role they've been given.

look at the hulk, it gets a substantial yield bonus, 15% from skills, ability to fit a 2nd mlu without implants, etc.
ok the skiff/procurer difference should be tank as that's it's role and from what i've seen it does that fine, especially now it also has a proper drone bay.
the mackinaw on the other hand doesn't even get an extra cycle, it really hasn't gained anything. it's a 11% increase in cargo capacity, that's less than a rig or a cargo expander.

the point is; going from a cov to a hulk or a proc to a skiff feels like an upgrade. when you don't even gain 1 extra cycle of ore, going from a ret to a mack doesn't feel like an upgrade.
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-07-26 14:41:05 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
going from a cov to a hulk or a proc to a skiff feels like an upgrade. when you don't even gain 1 extra cycle of ore, going from a ret to a mack doesn't feel like an upgrade.



+9000