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Barge Fairy Tale

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#281 - 2012-07-26 11:55:12 UTC
Dave stark wrote:


yeah, you do. you can't be cap stable without a deadspace/faction booster.

self entitlement? how? all i said was it's not what ccp want you to do, and i've stated why it's obvious ccp don't want you to do that.


Because CCP have never made a mistake with a ship buff before. Also learn to tank, t2 tanked hulks work just fine in 0.0
Doddy
Excidium.
#282 - 2012-07-26 11:55:27 UTC
Speaking as someone who has happily ganked scores of hulks there was never really any good reason for them having th survivability of a wet paper bag. Gankers don't expect to solo gank a freighter or a mission bs so they shouldn't really expect to be able to do it to a miner either. The only reservation i really have is the excessive tank on the afk friendly makinaw. To my mind hulk should have the same sort of tank as now but without really nerfing its output (the reduced cargo being a very goo dthing) to get it, the makinaw should have less tank than this not more. Really they should continue this trend into haulers. At the moment (with the notable exception of the itty 5) the highest capacity sub freighter haulers are also the most gank proof (DSTs).
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#283 - 2012-07-26 11:58:03 UTC
Tyrton wrote:
You spend time repeating the same boring 3 points
1 Don't afk mine
2 Tank your barge(instead of yield or cargo)
3 Be aligned and have friends.

AND NOW

You are now whining that it will take effort on your part to gank a barge.....REALLY.


The major part of the whine is that with the barge buff, the miner will no longer have to follow those three steps, since the raw Skiff hull with no tank fitted is already better tanked than a brick-fit Hulk, with better yield than that brick-fit Hulk the moment you fit an MLU/IHU in a low slot (which you will be able to do because you don't have to worry about tank). I have wanted a small buff to Exhumers for some time in the form of a little more PG and perhaps a bit more shield for the hulk. I'd have been elated with a 10PG buff to Hulks, since that would allow for 30k EHP and a mining upgrade in a low slot.

So here we are with an exhumer that can field a 100k EHP tank yet still get 5/6th the yield of a Hulk. For the tank & capacity roles, I'd have expected 1/2 the yield of a Hulk (through a cycle bonus on strip miners and ice harvesters), and I'd have expected the Hulk to receive a slight decrease in EHP to compensate for its extremely high yield.

What is wrong with this situation is that through no effort on the part of the miner, suicide ganking an exhumer is going to be solely the realm of the spite-ganker. It won't even be financially viable to interdict ice harvesting operations in hisec in order to manipulate the price of oxytopes.

It's entirely possible that gankers will "adapt" by switching to other sources of T2 salvage such as marauders. How many marauders are active-tanked gank fits with less than 30k EHP?

Who knows … maybe belt rats will get a serious buff so that a high yield Hulk will be challenged in 0.5 systems?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Y'nit Gidrine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2012-07-26 11:58:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Tyrton wrote:

AND NOW

You are now whining that it will take effort on your part to gank a barge.....REALLY.



No we are pointing out that exhumers could already tank and that the changes mean thet they can now tank most attempts while having a max yeild fit. Which is wrong.


and it's not wrong that a 3m ship can take down a 250m ship in a matter of seconds? i have no issue with a 3m ship taking down a 250m ship, i just have an issue with it happening in seconds.


The same 3 mil ship will take down any heavy assault ship and recon in the same time if they dont tank their ships.


Your comparison is flawed, the Hulk only has 35 power grid, 4 mid slots and 2 low slots. Hulks have tanks more comparable to frigates than cruisers. Frigates that fly at less than 100m/s and are the size of a battleship.
Dave Stark
#285 - 2012-07-26 12:03:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


yeah, you do. you can't be cap stable without a deadspace/faction booster.

self entitlement? how? all i said was it's not what ccp want you to do, and i've stated why it's obvious ccp don't want you to do that.


Because CCP have never made a mistake with a ship buff before. Also learn to tank, t2 tanked hulks work just fine in 0.0


i already said i think they might have gone overboard with the skiff.

i don't have an issue fitting a tank. again, a t2 small shield booster isn't cap stable.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#286 - 2012-07-26 12:04:25 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Y'nit Gidrine wrote:


Your comparison is flawed, the Hulk only has 35 power grid, 4 mid slots and 2 low slots. Hulks have tanks more comparable to frigates than cruisers. Frigates that fly at less than 100m/s and are the size of a battleship.


A hulk will get a 33k hp buffer. Most heavy assault ships get a buffer of between 30k and 40k. The comparison is valid.

The base tank on these ships is more or less the same with the same resists.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#287 - 2012-07-26 12:06:22 UTC
So i herd that the risk reward policy that makes EVE what it is doesnt apply to afk miners anymore

c/d

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Tyrton
Imbecile MIiss Managment and Disasters
Intergalactic Interstellar Interns
#288 - 2012-07-26 12:08:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tyrton wrote:

AND NOW

You are now whining that it will take effort on your part to gank a barge.....REALLY.



No we are pointing out that exhumers could already tank and that the changes mean thet they can now tank most attempts while having a max yeild fit. Which is wrong.



Not sure if its wrong max yield on a skiff does not compare to max yield on a hulk. The miner will have to trade off the number of strips he can have to the amount of tank he can have .

Another point is that the skiff was somewhat of a useless step in barges (unless it was used in deep core mining merx in (0.0))
This change will bring the skiff a new life in the steps leading up to the hulk.

A miner will trade up yield for tank just by simply choosing how much protection he wants ..

If i recall in some other post a fully yield hulk only has 28k ehp .. that is an improvement form the 9k or so it did have with an SB fit (have not eft-ed in a while)

To me the bottom line that no 3 week old alt in a cat getting off 4 rounds to take out a hulk. Those folks that love to gank will work out their new bottom line and keep on trucking ...


PS: Many have mentioned it before you can't tank stupid, even after the changes there will be miners that will be in their hulks with no rigs missing mids and mlu's in the lows. This will make ganking a bit more selective and ship scanners more used.
Dave Stark
#289 - 2012-07-26 12:09:32 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
So i herd that the risk reward policy that makes EVE what it is doesnt apply to afk miners anymore

c/d


nor suicide gankers.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#290 - 2012-07-26 12:14:24 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You should not get a profit because you slap 2 hardeners to survive a gank, but because you had to solve something more complex than what a turtle could do while asleep in order to get those minerals. Other MMOs do that and they certainly don't have brighter designers than CCP.


In which games is mining any more difficult than beating someone else to the rock and then activating your mining skill?


In Entropia you have to survey an area (and fight against aggro off stuff) and then find where the stuff could be close enough and finally deploy explosives (all stuff that gets used or breaks so you have to resupply as well). In the end you take more or less the same time but it's much more of an active game play.


Mara Rinn wrote:

I make a profit because I can survive a gank, but also because I practice that activity that all prey animals throughout the evolution of life on Earth have practised in order to survive and propagate the species: be alert. If you're in a group, make sure at least one of you is watching the region around you for danger.

This is more complex than "what a turtle could do while asleep".

The barge buff now means that mining is less complex than the simplest thing a turtle could do while dead. What challenge was left in mining is being taken away.


Did you seriously mine for the challenge? Shocked

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DrSmegma
Smegma United
#291 - 2012-07-26 12:14:32 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
So i herd that the risk reward policy that makes EVE what it is doesnt apply to afk miners anymore

c/d


nor suicide gankers.


Confirming two wrongs make a right

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#292 - 2012-07-26 12:15:13 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
nor suicide gankers.


Suicide gankers are the risk.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Dave Stark
#293 - 2012-07-26 12:17:42 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
So i herd that the risk reward policy that makes EVE what it is doesnt apply to afk miners anymore

c/d


nor suicide gankers.


Confirming two wrongs make a right


well, to be fair, they're mostly the ones complaining about it.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#294 - 2012-07-26 12:17:51 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Did you seriously mine for the challenge? Shocked


I mined for profit. There was very little challenge in mining, even your hypothetical sleeping turtle could do it. But all the people with less intellect than a sleeping turtle complained so long and loud that they got what they wished for, so now mining will have a barrier of entry so low that even a dead turtle could do it.

When I speak of challenge, you might want to substitute barrier to entry.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#295 - 2012-07-26 12:19:46 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
well, to be fair, they're mostly the ones complaining about it.


Half the people complaining about the buff are the people who actually mine as opposed to the people who might mine, if only it wasn't so dangerous.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#296 - 2012-07-26 12:19:55 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
So i herd that the risk reward policy that makes EVE what it is doesnt apply to afk miners anymore

c/d


nor suicide gankers.


Confirming two wrongs make a right


well, to be fair, they're mostly the ones complaining about it.


Suicide gankers were overpowered because of sloppy game mechanics, such as -10 pods being allowed into high sec.

Miners were unbalanced because they're the scum of the univers who refused to adapt and cried until CCP gave in although the possibilities to defend themselves had been existent all along.

There's nothing "fair" about this change as you say.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Taranius De Consolville
Doomheim
#297 - 2012-07-26 12:20:24 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:


Hi, i cannot gank mining barges anymore for fun, i cannot ruin peoples day anymore for fun

i am a whiney little *****



fixed it for u
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#298 - 2012-07-26 12:20:41 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
So i herd that the risk reward policy that makes EVE what it is doesnt apply to afk miners anymore

c/d


nor suicide gankers.

I know you arent the brightest spark, so i'll point it out to you

Suicide gankers are WELL aware of rick vs reward...

the risk is the ship that they WILL lose, the REWARD is the smug satisfaction that in maybe an hour, the miner will notice that he isnt in the belt anymore

These changes make it so that even Dolly the Cloned Sheep will be able to happily mine away without even a thought for the possible dangers that might be out there.

The hilarious thing is that the miners that CCP are trying to protect will probably not even notice the changes to the mining barge lineup for weeks

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#299 - 2012-07-26 12:22:16 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
Suicide gankers were overpowered because of sloppy game mechanics, such as -10 pods being allowed into high sec.
Do we need to sit you down with a textbook and explain to you how sec status works?

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Dave Stark
#300 - 2012-07-26 12:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Skippermonkey wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
So i herd that the risk reward policy that makes EVE what it is doesnt apply to afk miners anymore

c/d


nor suicide gankers.

I know you arent the brightest spark, so i'll point it out to you

Suicide gankers are WELL aware of rick vs reward...

the risk is the ship that they WILL lose, the REWARD is the smug satisfaction that in maybe an hour, the miner will notice that he isnt in the belt anymore

These changes make it so that even Dolly the Cloned Sheep will be able to happily mine away without even a thought for the possible dangers that might be out there.

The hilarious thing is that the miners that CCP are trying to protect will probably not even notice the changes to the mining barge lineup for weeks


there isn't any risk, that's the point. you can't have risk vs reward when there's no risk. it isn't a risk if it's a guaranteed ship loss.

and what thought for possible dangers? some one is either going to spend the isk and gank you, or they aren't going to spend the isk and not gank you. as it stands it just means gankers need to use bigger ships, which will cost them more money (or not if there are more miners because they're killing less and mineral prices drop)

gankers are only complaining because they're no longer making money from ganking exhumers, nothing more. the tears are delicious.