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Barge Fairy Tale

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Phill Esteen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2012-07-26 07:22:09 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
880m/s. Only problem is that it's align time's poor. But that's not a big deal when you have 100k EHP (before fleet bonuses) to get chewed through.


no no no, it needs to be fast enough to catch oversized AB Tengus

– postum faex est – 

never forget
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#182 - 2012-07-26 07:25:24 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
Can i get a link to all these new stats??? where does it say barges have orca hp?????


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=136222&find=unread

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Pipa Porto
#183 - 2012-07-26 07:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
ChromeStriker wrote:
Can i get a link to all these new stats??? where does it say barges have orca hp?????


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=136222
Discussion which includes some fits.

http://pastebin.com/frBc2muR
Raw stats.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1686159
SISI forums discussion.


(Apparantly, the Sig is increasing to 200 on the Skiff. So they're gonna be cruiser sized sigs)

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#184 - 2012-07-26 07:36:05 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
I was under the impression that suicide ganking wasn't "designed" at all, insofar as all ships anywhere in space can be attacked by default.


There's a fairy tale about a King who was looking for a master marksman to hunt the villains who kidnapped his daughter. His scouts brought him this bent, blunt old man carrying a bow, a quiver of arrows and a can of paint. The advisers exclaimed, "sire! This man is the most incredible marksman in the country! Every arrow he shoots hits the bullseye!"

To demonstrate, the old man shot an arrow, which bounced off the edge of the target roundel, ricochet of a wall and embedded itself in a tree. The old man walked over to the tree and painted a bullseye around the arrow.

TL;DR: “History shall be kind to us, for we shall write it!”


Thats actually an amusing story.

Incidentally, Mara Rinn is a perfect example of the 'smart' high-sec miner.
While I am generally inactive during the summer, I've recently made a few ganking passes through her mining systems.
She tanks her Hulk hard, and is quite content to continue mining away - with ice at record high prices. She pays attention to her surroundings, knows that I work alone - and am unlikely to crack her tank without spending far more than I'd like. And she broadcasts warnings to the other miners in local.

Fortunately for me, there usually are a few targets in system that don't pay attention and I get my kills as well.
I get to blow up some Exhumers, and she has less mining competition, allowing her to sell her ice at higher prices.

Win for the ganker, Win for the 'smart' miner, exactly how it should be.



This guy knows what's up.

Increasing mining barge/exhumer EHP and cargohold dumbs down the game.
There's no other way around this simple fact.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dave Stark
#185 - 2012-07-26 07:44:52 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).

That's a nice sentiment I suppose, but it seems you've failed to back it up with anything resembling a justification.

Do you have any idea what you're about to do to the game with this change?
Do you seriously believe this is a good idea?
MINERS THEMSELVES should be against this change, because it promotes lazy gameplay. Intelligent miners will be making far less, the price of minerals as a whole will drop, and supercapital production will be significantly cheaper. The only miners that will make any kind of money now are the same miners who find it difficult to pull a profit under these conditions because they're lazy and mine for hours simply because they don't even sit at their computers while they do it.

How you could possibly think this is a good idea is beyond me.


i nearly took you seriously until you said miners could be afk for hours demonstrating you've never mined for more than 5 mins in your entire life.

Yeah, I admit I forgot the part where you press F1, F2, and F3, and then go about whatever you were doing before.

The point is you don't even have to pay attention anymore, because it won't matter whatsoever.


and you still can't go afk for hours because asteroids will pop after about 6 mins. less if you're not using a hulk.
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#186 - 2012-07-26 07:47:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Richard Desturned wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).


so you're saying that it should literally cost half a billion to kill an afk mining hulk, one with nothing fitted as far as a tank, absolutely nothing trained as far as tanking skills and no effort taken to mitigate the risk of being blown up

i'm not trying to put words in your mouth but that sounds like what you're trying to say by "it should cost more to kill a ship than what the ship is worth"


-clip- Ranting - ISD Tyrozan
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#187 - 2012-07-26 07:48:22 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
and you still can't go afk for hours because asteroids will pop after about 6 mins. less if you're not using a hulk.

Oh, well, let me tell you about this little piece of software I have...

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dave Stark
#188 - 2012-07-26 07:51:26 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
and you still can't go afk for hours because asteroids will pop after about 6 mins. less if you're not using a hulk.

Oh, well, let me tell you about this little piece of software I have...


your signature makes this post even more amusing than it is.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#189 - 2012-07-26 07:54:59 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Incidentally, Mara Rinn is a perfect example of the 'smart' high-sec miner.
While I am generally inactive during the summer, I've recently made a few ganking passes through her mining systems.
She tanks her Hulk hard, and is quite content to continue mining away - with ice at record high prices. She pays attention to her surroundings, knows that I work alone - and am unlikely to crack her tank without spending far more than I'd like. And she broadcasts warnings to the other miners in local.

Fortunately for me, there usually are a few targets in system that don't pay attention and I get my kills as well.
I get to blow up some Exhumers, and she has less mining competition, allowing her to sell her ice at higher prices.

Win for the ganker, Win for the 'smart' miner, exactly how it should be.


The current balance is great: gankers who are careful can sustain their playstyle by eating their prey: T2 salvage and 2-6M ISK ice harvester modules go a long way to paying for the T2 blaster catalyst, methinks. Just as long as I am not the target :)

Removing the dumb miners and keeping the threat of suicide ganking real means there are fewer people keen to get out in the belts with max yield vessels, means there are tidy profits to be made for those who dedicate their play time to mining. Being alert means the miners have to form some form of community (intel channels, red/blue lists, conversations in local with strangers) and the game is a richer experience for it.

These new buffs will hurt actively playing miners and suicide gankers alike. After the changes, mining profitability will drop off a cliff because the only people doing it will be those asleep at the keyboard or whose cats are playing for them. People like me will switch to whatever else is better at raising ISK.

To the suicide gankers, thank you for your service to the community. And for not eating me :)

To CCP: I hope you have something up your sleeve, otherwise this barge buff will end up benefitting bots and sociopaths more than real players. I dread the thought of what you might have in the pipeline to counter the barge buff. The only buff the Hulk needed was 10PG.

I will be alert for the inevitable Tornado trio ganking my Hulk as the gankers bid their careers goodbye.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#190 - 2012-07-26 08:07:51 UTC
Quote:
After the changes, mining profitability will drop off a cliff because the only people doing it will be those asleep at the keyboard or whose cats are playing for them.


Or maybe the gankers will have to go back to shooting each other to make their money. Get their asses back out there blowing each other up and creating upward pressure on the price of minerals.

The risk free money of blowing up a exhumer, looting the t2 strips, salvaging intact plates, and getting a isk GG pat on the ass from goons all for the cost of a well fit dessie isn't going to be there anymore.
Dave Stark
#191 - 2012-07-26 08:09:24 UTC
Jypsie wrote:
Quote:
After the changes, mining profitability will drop off a cliff because the only people doing it will be those asleep at the keyboard or whose cats are playing for them.


Or maybe the gankers will have to go back to shooting each other to make their money. Get their asses back out there blowing each other up and creating upward pressure on the price of minerals.

The risk free money of blowing up a exhumer, looting the t2 strips, salvaging intact plates, and getting a isk GG pat on the ass from goons all for the cost of a well fit dessie isn't going to be there anymore.



the fact still remains; mineral prices will be going down.
Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#192 - 2012-07-26 08:12:18 UTC
Quote:
the fact still remains; mineral prices will be going down.


True. Its the nature of the industry. Just have to hope for more wars.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#193 - 2012-07-26 08:14:10 UTC
Ah, yes, the good old "gankers should grow balls and go shoot each other" argument. I guess for people who've never once fit guns to their ships, it always has to be one or the other.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dave Stark
#194 - 2012-07-26 08:17:53 UTC
Jypsie wrote:
Quote:
the fact still remains; mineral prices will be going down.


True. Its the nature of the industry. Just have to hope for more wars.


even as a miner i kinda like lower mineral prices. it still takes me the same amount of time to buy most things, and anything else i do is worth more relative to what it was worth in terms of purchasing power.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#195 - 2012-07-26 08:19:21 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:


Good stuff. Soundwave should try and absorb what I have to say.



Couldn't have said it better myself - and I've been saying it for 3-4 years now.

Remove the predators from the equation and you end up with large numbers of very stupid prey - and they starve when they exhaust the food supply (ie, overrun the demand for minerals/ice.)

All miners end up the same, with no challenges to distinguish (and reward) the intelligent ones over the slow and stupid.

And yes, make no mistake - this IS removing predators from the equation, because gankers are not going to waste 500M ISK to gank your AFKing, 200M ISK Mackinaw, let alone over a billion to kill your 120M ISK Skiff.

Somehow I don't think 'belt rats' are going to pose a credible threat to these new Exhumers.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#196 - 2012-07-26 08:21:25 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
If these changes go through I'd like to see CCP put bot hunting into overdrive. These changes will make botting all the more easier because you don't need to worry about that mining ship getting ganked.


Totally wrong. Botters have 20 replacement ships, their money comes from huge quantity over time not from survivability.

A small mining op can make 300M a day, a botter makes 900M+. Imagine how much they care to lose a ship every now and them.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#197 - 2012-07-26 08:23:31 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Ah, yes, the good old "gankers should grow balls and go shoot each other" argument. I guess for people who've never once fit guns to their ships, it always has to be one or the other.


You realize lots of miners producing cheap ships and lots of wars blowing up those cheap ships are good for the game, right? Circle of life/production/destruction?

PvP'ers cannibalizing miners is counter-productive to the flow of the game. Shooting your foot so to speak.

Pussies did it though because they could make a quick buck without having to put up a fight.
Dave Stark
#198 - 2012-07-26 08:29:53 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:


Good stuff. Soundwave should try and absorb what I have to say.



Couldn't have said it better myself - and I've been saying it for 3-4 years now.

Remove the predators from the equation and you end up with large numbers of very stupid prey - and they starve when they exhaust the food supply (ie, overrun the demand for minerals/ice.)

All miners end up the same, with no challenges to distinguish (and reward) the intelligent ones over the slow and stupid.

And yes, make no mistake - this IS removing predators from the equation, because gankers are not going to waste 500M ISK to gank your AFKing, 200M ISK Mackinaw, let alone over a billion to kill your 120M ISK Skiff.

Somehow I don't think 'belt rats' are going to pose a credible threat to these new Exhumers.






the problem is, you can't have belt rats that will 1shot new players. in terms of belt rats even the regular mining barges with no tank at all are overtanked for high sec belt rats. a flight of light drones will take out the high sec belt rats in a single volley, maybe two depending on your drone skills. however with rats not spawning in 1.0 systems i guess we could justify throwing battleship rats in to high sec.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#199 - 2012-07-26 08:31:57 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
So... the moral of the story is that the Big Bad Wolf has gone from being a windbag to a crybaby?



Nope, this Big Bad Wolf will probably go back to ganking haulers. (until Crimewatch kills that profession off)

And there are always Tengus to pop.

But Exhumers will likely be off the menu.

...

So spare me the crybaby comments.

The Goons are right on this one.


No they are not.

Why do you pop a Tengu? Because of the bare hull or because it's using that nice deadspace booster and faction launchers?
If you only saw T1 fitted Tengus how many gankers would kill them "for a profit"? Few, eh?

So why would a T1 fit exhumer bring in profit "just for existing" instead?
There are Hulks with deadspace small shield booster (fitting copied from Halada's mining guide) go kill them. They are pimped like the pimped Tengu.

All the others are worthless like it's worthless to gank a T1 fit Tengu or an empty hauler.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#200 - 2012-07-26 08:33:16 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:


Good stuff. Soundwave should try and absorb what I have to say.



Couldn't have said it better myself - and I've been saying it for 3-4 years now.

Remove the predators from the equation and you end up with large numbers of very stupid prey - and they starve when they exhaust the food supply (ie, overrun the demand for minerals/ice.)

All miners end up the same, with no challenges to distinguish (and reward) the intelligent ones over the slow and stupid.

And yes, make no mistake - this IS removing predators from the equation, because gankers are not going to waste 500M ISK to gank your AFKing, 200M ISK Mackinaw, let alone over a billion to kill your 120M ISK Skiff.

Somehow I don't think 'belt rats' are going to pose a credible threat to these new Exhumers.






the problem is, you can't have belt rats that will 1shot new players. in terms of belt rats even the regular mining barges with no tank at all are overtanked for high sec belt rats. a flight of light drones will take out the high sec belt rats in a single volley, maybe two depending on your drone skills. however with rats not spawning in 1.0 systems i guess we could justify throwing battleship rats in to high sec.



Not true, try flying a Retriever with newbie skills below 0.7 sec and it gets popped so fast it's unreal. Even spamming shield repeair. The game has to work for them too.

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