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Barge Fairy Tale

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2012-07-26 06:28:18 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
His wording is pretty clear.

There is still quite a bit of room for interpretation. When I read it I took it as hull for hull, not counting variables including fit and cargo. But as I said before, I could be mistaken.
Pipa Porto wrote:
Deciding on a cost to gank is fine (that's basically what a Freighter's EHP is). But there's no reason it should have anything to do with the cost of the ship.

It shouldn't (and doesn't even in the hulk's case with similar costing ships). Your illustration proves that. Maybe what we have is more of a response to the social evolution of the game then.


there is literally no way to make it cost as much as a Hulk to suicide gank a Hulk because there is no across the board damage/cost ratio for ships because of the diminishing returns aspect of the game

a Vindicator may be substantially more powerful than a Megathron, but even though it costs 10x as much, it does not perform 10x as well

Let me clarify, in this case it would be the potential reward of the gank based on the hull alone, not the cost. In the case of T2 salvage this can set a high bar for exhumers.

All that aside I do wish the hulk had actually been left alone base HP wise and the focus shifted abit to just enhancing fittings. would be much more interesting IMHO.
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2012-07-26 06:30:43 UTC
The fact that the 30k ehp hulk, which was already fairly immune to cost effective ganks in 0.8 and up, is now the WEAKEST exhumer tank, is frankly a huge blunder.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#143 - 2012-07-26 06:32:05 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:



All that aside I do wish the hulk had actually been left alone base HP wise and the focus shifted abit to just enhancing fittings. would be much more interesting IMHO.


Agreed, the exhumers did not need more HP on the hulls.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2012-07-26 06:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Let me clarify, in this case it would be the potential reward of the gank based on the hull alone, not the cost. In the case of T2 salvage this can set a high bar for exhumers.

All that aside I do wish the hulk had actually been left alone base HP wise and the focus shifted abit to just enhancing fittings. would be much more interesting IMHO.


This is what I've been saying - rather than fiddling around with giving them hilariously high base HP, give them the ability to fit better tanks at the expense of yield so that sacrificing yield could actually net you a decent enough tank

a Hulk right now can tank 36k EHP against blasters, which is decent, but it'd be better if it could wring out 60k (again, sacrificing yield) while not being much better off than it is now with an all-yield fit

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Dave Stark
#145 - 2012-07-26 06:34:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:



All that aside I do wish the hulk had actually been left alone base HP wise and the focus shifted abit to just enhancing fittings. would be much more interesting IMHO.


Agreed, the exhumers did not need more HP on the hulls.


then they did need more cpu/pg for fittings. almost every tank fit i've seen for the current hulk requires micro auxiluary power core thingies for extra fitting space.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#146 - 2012-07-26 06:35:25 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
there is literally no way to make it cost as much as a Hulk to suicide gank a Hulk because there is no across the board damage/cost ratio for ships because of the diminishing returns aspect of the game


That is the case for most ships, why should it be any different for mining ship?, the aggressor(s) still have the option to form a group an use several less expensive.

You can get a battlecruiser for around 40M and hulk a hulk for around 270M.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Pipa Porto
#147 - 2012-07-26 06:35:38 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
His wording is pretty clear.

There is still quite a bit of room for interpretation. When I read it I took it as hull for hull, not counting variables including fit and cargo. But as I said before, I could be mistaken.
Pipa Porto wrote:
Deciding on a cost to gank is fine (that's basically what a Freighter's EHP is). But there's no reason it should have anything to do with the cost of the ship.

It shouldn't (and doesn't even in the hulk's case with similar costing ships). Your illustration proves that. Maybe what we have is more of a response to the social evolution of the game then.


So we should punish successful strategies even though the victims of said strategies have had the way to beat those successful ones explained to them many times?

If taking Australia and holding it for 20 turns works for me every time in Risk because my opponents never even try to stop me over the course of Hundreds of games (even though they've had the strategy explained to them), do you nerf Australia, or do you decide that my opponents are morons?

Suicide ganking can be trivially countered. The ways in which it can be countered have been enumerated many times.

1. Tank your Hulk
2. Mine aligned (webs make this easy, but it can be done solo)(Total Immunity here)
3. Mine in a Rokh (battleship mining used to be THE way to make money)
4. Use D-Scan to look for gank ships incoming
5. Use Local in a backwater and get to know the regulars.
6. Sit in a Grav site and use D-Scan (really effective)
7. Sit in a mission pocket and use D-Scan (short range d-scan will eliminate most false positives)
8. Use a fleet booster on a tanked Hulk (~45-50k EHP)
9. Use RR
10. Use ECM
11. Put a Seboed 800mm Nado on your Hulks and Blap anyone who goes GCC.
12. Use ECM drones set on aggressive

All of these provide varying measures of safety at varying costs. None of them don't work. All of them are strong counters to Suicide ganks.

If a strategy can be trivially countered, it's not Overpowered. The opponents are just bad.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2012-07-26 06:35:56 UTC
I for one will be theorycrafting a sigtanked bonused battleskiff comedy doctrine.
Harbingour
EVE Corporation 690846961
#149 - 2012-07-26 06:36:09 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
So... the moral of the story is that the Big Bad Wolf has gone from being a windbag to a crybaby?



Yep grab the tear bucket & start collectingthe delicious lazy gankers tears lil' piggies
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Pipa Porto
#150 - 2012-07-26 06:38:40 UTC
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
I for one will be theorycrafting a sigtanked bonused battleskiff comedy doctrine.


A Cyno Skiff in every mining fleet.

Awoxers never had it so good (you won't even be on the KMs).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2012-07-26 06:38:58 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Malphilos wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Suicide ganking wasn't designed to be profitable, it's meant to be an option that let's you punish someone else at your expense.


There's a whole bunch of interesting in this bit.


oh, hah i see it now too xD you bastard, ruined my purity.

also wth I've never flown caps, even on my main. Or lit a cyno personally. Is it really something any ship can use? shouldn't it be something a ship with a role uses? like bombs?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2012-07-26 06:42:51 UTC
Harbingour wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
So... the moral of the story is that the Big Bad Wolf has gone from being a windbag to a crybaby?



Yep grab the tear bucket & start collectingthe delicious lazy gankers tears lil' piggies


frankly the "abloobloobloo my hulk got blown up in hisec i thought it was safe there" tears were far, far better

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#153 - 2012-07-26 06:45:48 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Gone are the days where EVE is a dangerous place.

I seem to have missed the part when they made all player ships immune to damage.


That won't happen as long as I'm around, btw.

Suicide ganking wasn't designed to be profitable, it's meant to be an option that let's you punish someone else at your expense. The money you paid for a ship to gank with compared to the money lost by your target was completely off and this change should bring that to a better spot. That said, the numbers can still be adjusted.



I was under the impression that suicide ganking wasn't "designed" at all, insofar as all ships anywhere in space can be attacked by default.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Dave Stark
#154 - 2012-07-26 06:46:13 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Harbingour wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
So... the moral of the story is that the Big Bad Wolf has gone from being a windbag to a crybaby?



Yep grab the tear bucket & start collectingthe delicious lazy gankers tears lil' piggies


frankly the "abloobloobloo my hulk got blown up in hisec i thought it was safe there" tears were far, far better


any plans for goons to raise rewards for hulkageddon in order to somewhat bankroll bigger ships to continue ganking miners?
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2012-07-26 06:46:25 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
I for one will be theorycrafting a sigtanked bonused battleskiff comedy doctrine.


A Cyno Skiff in every mining fleet.

Awoxers never had it so good (you won't even be on the KMs).


Seriously a 100k ehp cruiser sized skiff, with tengu and loki bonuses, will be a hilarious thing.
Pipa Porto
#156 - 2012-07-26 06:48:23 UTC
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
I for one will be theorycrafting a sigtanked bonused battleskiff comedy doctrine.


A Cyno Skiff in every mining fleet.

Awoxers never had it so good (you won't even be on the KMs).


Seriously a 100k ehp cruiser sized skiff, with tengu and loki bonuses, will be a hilarious thing.


From what I understand from another thread, it's Sig Radius is decreasing to an almost Frigate size.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2012-07-26 06:49:26 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
A lot of stuff.

I don't fundamentally dissagree with what you've said here, but it doesn't change the idea of a base EHP cost to perform a gank, which is clearly what they have in mind. This is a penalty for doing what you did, regardless of if the person you did it to allowed it to happen or not.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2012-07-26 06:50:37 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
From what I understand from another thread, it's Sig Radius is decreasing to an almost Frigate size.


the skiff already has a frigate-sized sig

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Pipa Porto
#159 - 2012-07-26 06:52:58 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
From what I understand from another thread, it's Sig Radius is decreasing to an almost Frigate size.


the skiff already has a frigate-sized sig


Ok, not decreasing. Staying the same. Aren't 100k EHP Frigates a wonderful idea?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2012-07-26 06:53:54 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
any plans for goons to raise rewards for hulkageddon in order to somewhat bankroll bigger ships to continue ganking miners?


yeah if we do continue to fund hulkageddon infinity despite the tech nerf, we might have to slightly increase the reward so that people could use *gasp* more than one catalyst

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration