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Barge Fairy Tale

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CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#101 - 2012-07-26 05:28:09 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
If I wanted to remove aggression, I'd just shut it off, instead of going through all these hoops to keep it alive. The reality is that suicide ganking is an integral part of the game that I quite like, but every now and then we need to make changes because the current setup doesn't work.


Why do you think it doesn't work? Right now, Hulks can fit for Tank (sacrificing Yield and convenience), and be unprofitable to gank.
Hulks can fit for convenience (sacrificing Yield and Tank), and be profitable to gank.
Hulks can be fit for yield (sacrificing Tank and convenience), and be profitable to gank.

Hulks can also fit themselves to make it easy to mine while aligned.


If these changes weren't designed as a straight nerf to Suicide ganking, why has every Exhumer gotten a significant Tank increase?

Why are you devaluing the Skiff's new role with both the Hulk and Mack tank buff before it's even on TQ?
Why are you devaluing the Mack's new role with the Skiff's new cargo hold?

And none of them can be profitable to gank.


Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#102 - 2012-07-26 05:28:41 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:


If I wanted to remove aggression, I'd just shut it off, instead of going through all these hoops to keep it alive. The reality is that suicide ganking is an integral part of the game that I quite like, but every now and then we need to make changes because the current setup doesn't work.


The exhumers didnt need to buff to their tank. The skiff and the hulk could already fit a heavy assault ship class tank and the mack could get high end cruiser which made them ungankworthy to all but the most dedicated/angry ganker. The t1 barges needed the work done on the tank. What the exhumers needed was distinct rolls but the way they have been altered means that they all overlap into eachothers turf.

The skiff should be the little brick that can escape and live in lowsec. Tanky little scamp with a +2 warp strength to get out of sticky situations

The Mack with its expansive hold but poor defences and mining yeild

The hulk with its hoover like yeild but small cargo and poor tank.


Three ships for different jobs all of which could be fitted for either tank or yeild not both. Having to make the choice is a good thing as is the risk that goes along with that choice.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2012-07-26 05:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).


so you're saying that it should literally cost half a billion to kill an afk mining hulk, one with nothing fitted as far as a tank, absolutely nothing trained as far as tanking skills and no effort taken to mitigate the risk of being blown up

i'm not trying to put words in your mouth but that sounds like what you're trying to say by "it should cost more to kill a ship than what the ship is worth"

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Pipa Porto
#104 - 2012-07-26 05:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).


Ok, so you don't feel that miners in HS should be exposed to any risk. Sure.

People don't throw away Isk on Suicide ganking like miners seem to think they do. It's done for profit, and Suicide Ganking has always been done for profit (whether Freighters, Industrials, or Barges).

What reason is there for making the price of the ship relevant? I thought you learned that lesson after Titans/Supers.

Again. If a current Hulk is fit properly, it is not profitable to gank it. Ask the GSF for their data on Hulk KMs. See how many of them were tanked well.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#105 - 2012-07-26 05:36:05 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
It's done for profit, and Suicide Ganking has always been done for profit


I guess if you say it enough you begin to believe it.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#106 - 2012-07-26 05:36:32 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).

If you really thought that, then you'd be reconsidering exhumer construction requirements instead of simply buffing their health to buffer-fit battleship levels. The fact that you're not is obviously indicative of your intent to marginalize ganking to such an extent that anyone who can't field three to four dozen destroyers for a single kill (read: the majority of people) won't do it.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2012-07-26 05:37:57 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

People don't throw away Isk on Suicide ganking like miners seem to think they do. It's done for profit, and Suicide Ganking has always been done for profit (whether Freighters, Industrials, or Barges).

To be fair, either you are mistaken or some of your peers are lying.
Pipa Porto
#108 - 2012-07-26 05:42:04 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

People don't throw away Isk on Suicide ganking like miners seem to think they do. It's done for profit, and Suicide Ganking has always been done for profit (whether Freighters, Industrials, or Barges).

To be fair, either you are mistaken or some of your peers are lying.



Goonswarm Propaganda not being totally accurate about their motives? Whaaaaaa??? Roll


Anyway, I will qualify it. It's only done on a large scale for profit. How many not-for-profit Freighter ganks happen?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2012-07-26 05:44:24 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
i remember when a couple of dudes in frigates kept a proteus tackled long enough for us to arrive and murder it

clearly two dudes in 500k isk ships deciding the fate of a 2bn isk ship is totally unfair

If in a different security, different engagement rules and irrelevant to the situation being discussed.
If the frigates were able to trick the proteus into engaging then the proteus chose to engage and irrelevant to the situation being discussed.


not really, because by this logic you'll be equally safe in an 0.5 system as you would in a 1.0

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2012-07-26 05:47:12 UTC
Damnit! i need to get the hulk out to load up on these tears!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2012-07-26 05:47:36 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

People don't throw away Isk on Suicide ganking like miners seem to think they do. It's done for profit, and Suicide Ganking has always been done for profit (whether Freighters, Industrials, or Barges).

To be fair, either you are mistaken or some of your peers are lying.



Goonswarm Propaganda not being totally accurate about their motives? Whaaaaaa??? Roll


Anyway, I will qualify it. It's only done on a large scale for profit. How many not-for-profit Freighter ganks happen?

It's not simply limited to the words of Goonswarm, perhaps zealous individuals that believe the propaganda? But then that still makes it true even if self fulfilling. Also in the case of freighters the damage necessary to kill the base hull will cost well beyond the rewards the wreck will leave. The same isn't true of any of the current exhumers. So perhaps that is a bad example. Maybe transport ships?
Gun Gal
Dark Club
#112 - 2012-07-26 05:47:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Gun Gal
Lol, crybaby gankers,HOW I LOVE YOUR TEARS

YES FOLKS THE LITTLE BABIES ARE SAD THAT THEIR GRIEF TACTICS HAVE TO CHANGE.

this is too darn funny, kinda like the other day when I had my Proteus cloaked by my hulk with a can dropped.

Should have seen the griefers tears as I ripped a new.one.

Griefers: too lame to really pvp, what's that saying, don't like the heat?
Stay the f%&k
out of the kitchen
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2012-07-26 05:48:27 UTC
Tell them about how Concord actually works against them for these suicide ganks.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#114 - 2012-07-26 05:49:32 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Tell them about how Concord actually works against them for these suicide ganks.


you're right, CONCORD should be removed, that way you eliminate suicide ganking entirely

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Jypsie
Wandering Star Enterprises
#115 - 2012-07-26 05:50:33 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).


so you're saying that it should literally cost half a billion to kill an afk mining hulk, one with nothing fitted as far as a tank, absolutely nothing trained as far as tanking skills and no effort taken to mitigate the risk of being blown up

i'm not trying to put words in your mouth but that sounds like what you're trying to say by "it should cost more to kill a ship than what the ship is worth"


Quote:
but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender


Oooh, that's a Bingo!

Is that the way you say it? "That's a bingo?"
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2012-07-26 05:50:49 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
i remember when a couple of dudes in frigates kept a proteus tackled long enough for us to arrive and murder it

clearly two dudes in 500k isk ships deciding the fate of a 2bn isk ship is totally unfair

If in a different security, different engagement rules and irrelevant to the situation being discussed.
If the frigates were able to trick the proteus into engaging then the proteus chose to engage and irrelevant to the situation being discussed.


not really, because by this logic you'll be equally safe in an 0.5 system as you would in a 1.0

In either a 1.0 or an 0.5 the frigates wouldn't be free to engage for any length of time without some for of aggression or kill rights and even then they only held it so help could arrive. This isn't a fair comparison to a suicide gank or the balancing mechanics behind one.
Pipa Porto
#117 - 2012-07-26 05:51:30 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

People don't throw away Isk on Suicide ganking like miners seem to think they do. It's done for profit, and Suicide Ganking has always been done for profit (whether Freighters, Industrials, or Barges).

To be fair, either you are mistaken or some of your peers are lying.



Goonswarm Propaganda not being totally accurate about their motives? Whaaaaaa??? Roll


Anyway, I will qualify it. It's only done on a large scale for profit. How many not-for-profit Freighter ganks happen?

It's not simply limited to the words of Goonswarm, perhaps zealous individuals that believe the propaganda? But then that still makes it true even if self fulfilling. Also in the case of freighters the damage necessary to kill the base hull will cost well beyond the rewards the wreck will leave. The same isn't true of any of the current exhumers. So perhaps that is a bad example. Maybe transport ships?


The new Skiff's going to have 2/3rds the EHP of a Freighter.

How many properly tanked Hulks do you see in lossmails in 1.0 space (where you need 3 Nados at a cost of 200m)?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#118 - 2012-07-26 05:52:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
i remember when a couple of dudes in frigates kept a proteus tackled long enough for us to arrive and murder it

clearly two dudes in 500k isk ships deciding the fate of a 2bn isk ship is totally unfair

If in a different security, different engagement rules and irrelevant to the situation being discussed.
If the frigates were able to trick the proteus into engaging then the proteus chose to engage and irrelevant to the situation being discussed.


not really, because by this logic you'll be equally safe in an 0.5 system as you would in a 1.0

In either a 1.0 or an 0.5 the frigates wouldn't be free to engage for any length of time without some for of aggression or kill rights and even then they only held it so help could arrive. This isn't a fair comparison to a suicide gank or the balancing mechanics behind one.


Soundwave just said that he wanted to make sure Suicide Gankers have to pay more than their prey loses. Pointing out that that is silly is perfectly valid.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#119 - 2012-07-26 05:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Pipa Porto wrote:

Ask the GSF for their data on Hulk KMs. See how many of them were tanked well.


Here are the Bat Country Caldari ice interdiction records

By all means look through the 773 exhumers we killed.

You will find almost all of them fitted no tank or a very poor one.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2012-07-26 05:54:42 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

Soundwave just said that he wanted to make sure Suicide Gankers have to pay more than their prey loses. Pointing out that that is silly is perfectly valid.

It isn't relevant because the situation being discussed wasn't a suicide gank and as such soundwaves statement doesn't apply.