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CCP - promoting AFK mining and botting with the new barges.

Author
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#141 - 2012-07-25 18:16:04 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
drone alloys were a significant source of high-ends, not low-ends


did they have large amounts higher then nocxium?

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Suqq Madiq
#142 - 2012-07-25 18:18:04 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
okay are you going to actually counter my points or just smear nonsense all over this thread :shobon:


You haven't made any points worth countering. Unless you're suggesting there is a great debate at hand about the fact that people once mined in Battleships? Or that EHP buffs mean that mining in highsec is now %100 risk free? Or that the way you chose to play the game is better than how somebody else chooses to play?

The truth is, these buffs WILL:

1) Reduce profitability across the board for Highsec mining.
2) Reduce profitability across the board for Highsec miner ganking.
3) Increase highsec mining.
4) Reduce highsec ganking.
5) Reduce Tech income as a result of fewer ganks.
6) Reduce Mineral income as a result of increased mining.

These buffs WILL NOT:

1) Destroy EVE.
2) Make miners indestructible.
3) Make highsec mining risk-free.
4) Cause gankers to unsubscribe.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#143 - 2012-07-25 18:19:37 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Actually it's CCP's effort to take away Drone alloys that made mining interesting again. You've just disrupted mining activity for a while, then add all the bots CCP actually banned (not your mindless ganking false argument).

So let's resume this to simple words: Drones alloys gone + bots ban (thx CCP and GJ Shreegs) leads to less minerals in the market, making mining actually worthy.
Your contribution to this is undeniable, but absolutely not in those proportions "gankers" in general pretend just like if they weren't there "oulàlà" the game would die: flash news says it wouldn't.

Now how many players got tired and left the game because of this? -can you really answer this question without the "adapt or die" you seem no willing to accept yourself?

Anyway, there's no end ores in high sec therefore not that much profitable as it seems, just make them space love you and go mine uber end ores in null. Now that would be great for the game and the community.


continue to believe that hulkageddon was totally irrelevant and had no effect on hisec mining despite the 15k kills, most of which were in may

continue to believe that hisec mining will remain as profitable as it is now even with substantially reduced ganking and lower-tier barges/exhumers having substantially higher yield and tank than they do now

drone alloys were a significant source of high-ends, not low-ends



The only thing I believe is that you actually over estimate your contribution and just don't like to come with :numbers: to prove your point.
The highest minerals provider was drone regions, then high sec botting/mining then reprocess.
Drones are gone, thousands of bots are gone, loot and modules to reprocess dropped drastically and you still argue it's your holly contribution that made mining worthwhile?
-no, your contribution is smaller than you will ever admit, but for sure your contribution for this mining barges changes is quite huge.


Those ships are not invincible, just require some effort so again, where's the problem?

brb

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#144 - 2012-07-25 18:21:13 UTC
Fuujin wrote:

Barges are getting over 5x their current level of EHP. To suicide one now would require an uninsurable tier3 BC (or multiples), which is vastly unprofitable economically. If you are in an NPC corp (or corp-hop after a wardec) you're utterly safe from being ganked unless you're fitting pricey modules.

So, yeah. Untouchable fleets of bots will blot out the belts. Guess I'll just have to take solace in the cheap ships I'll be able to buy once lowends crack the floor.



Why do you find popping an empty hauler vastly profitable instead? No, you only pop the minority with juicy stuff inside.

Why should it be profitable to pop an empty *any* ship? You pop them because you have a plan against their corp or because they have some deadspace mods (many Hulks used to have them, as they copy pasted Halada's guide fitting), not because it has to be your self entitled, granted super-profitable profession.


Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#145 - 2012-07-25 18:22:15 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Are you claiming that somehow barges did not need the attention?.. or are you just whining as always?


generally ships need attention when they are underused

hulks, mackinaws, covetors and retrievers are anything but underused


Because there were SO MANY functional alternatives. Almost as many as we have in frigates. Oh wait...


Did You Know that people mined in battleships before the introduction of barges and exhumers?



... and it was so stupid that CCP implemented mining ships?
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#146 - 2012-07-25 18:25:30 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
... and it was so stupid that CCP implemented mining ships?


and then decided that they should never be ganked ever because, as they have shown through their actions (repeated concord buffs, removal of insurance from concord kills, mining barge HP buff) hisec miners are a protected class

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#147 - 2012-07-25 18:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Fuujin
Suqq Madiq wrote:

Another myth. They're increasing EHP, not making the ships indestructible. You speak of "guaranteed surivival(sic)" as if there is some magical bubble of immunity surrounding ships in highsec resulting in no risk whatsoever. Undocking is always a risk, no matter what ship you're in.


A hulk, properly tanked NOW, can survive solo ganks. A mack can shrug off all but the highest firepower attacks.

With the buffs, they'll require multiple people to kill. The incentive to do so drops off precipitously when you need to spend 150M+ to kill a target. At no point did I claim it was an absolute impossibility to gank barges in hisec--but as a practical matter, it will become the pastime of the rich who don't care about sustainability.

But in any case, what's done is done (or will be done), so oh well. I just await your next round of plaintive cries and whines to CCP when "mining is too unprofitable" or "bots are all over!"

Edit: I will go so far as to say that the new skiffs will be nigh-ungankable in hisec. And they'll now mine as much as a covetor.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#148 - 2012-07-25 18:28:56 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
... and it was so stupid that CCP implemented mining ships?


and then decided that they should never be ganked ever because, as they have shown through their actions (repeated concord buffs, removal of insurance from concord kills, mining barge HP buff) hisec miners are a protected class


And that they should be.

With the removal of drone poo the miners are now more then ever the back bone of our economy.

That said, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be shot when they venture out to low / null / WHs trying to make better money than high sec ore can provide :P

The Drake is a Lie

Ohh Yeah
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#149 - 2012-07-25 18:29:35 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
why would you subscribe to a game just to mine imaginary minerals


:minecraft:
Dave stark
#150 - 2012-07-25 18:31:08 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
... and it was so stupid that CCP implemented mining ships?


and then decided that they should never be ganked ever because, as they have shown through their actions (repeated concord buffs, removal of insurance from concord kills, mining barge HP buff) hisec miners are a protected class


the difference is, concord is the only defense that high sec miners have. high sec will never have intel on par with alliance intel channels in null, rarely will you have people ready to warp to you in combat ships if you really mess up and get tackled, etc.

there's a difference between "never being ganked" and "requires some effort/drawback to claim the free kill"
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#151 - 2012-07-25 18:32:27 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Danny Diamonds wrote:
So you are saying everyone should fly sub-optimal ships for every task? I do seem to recall fleets of Rifters for new players, and not many sitting in Condors. Same is true for every tier of ship. There are those worth flying, those that are clearly in the top 3, and there are those not worth flying. What kind of logic says someone should fly sub-optimal?


believe it or not there was once a time when battleship mining reigned


well this is an MMO and this is CCP's game. And we are not playing for yesterday, we are playing for tomorrow. If you cannot handle the change, even when it does not work out in your favor, then you should just quit playing video games all together because that is the new way of doing things from here on out. Seriously, sometimes I think people post on here just to hear themselves talk. Miners rejoice and people have a problem with it. Get a grip.
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#152 - 2012-07-25 18:32:41 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
And that they should be.


and then it will be mission runners

and then it will be incursion runners

and then it will be dudes hauling their life's worth in a badger

and then it will be gullible dudes with 60b waiting to be scammed

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#153 - 2012-07-25 18:33:32 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
the difference is, concord is the only defense that high sec miners have. high sec will never have intel on par with alliance intel channels in null, rarely will you have people ready to warp to you in combat ships if you really mess up and get tackled, etc.

there's a difference between "never being ganked" and "requires some effort/drawback to claim the free kill"


balancing the game around the fact that hiseccers refuse to work together and refuse to fit their ships properly is dumb

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#154 - 2012-07-25 18:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: arcca jeth
you reap what you sow. Maybe Goons shot themselves in the foot here. And if they didn't, what are they doing here arguing with miners for then? They stomped around in the sandbox long enough and CCP recognized that GOONS do not make this game nor do they determine what CCP's development plans are. So they started to cater to the other players that have been screaming for these changes for years. And here Goons are complaining about it? It's about time the shoe was on the other foot and you don't like it. This is what happens when you **** in the wind, it sprays back into your face and some of it gets into your mouth. All of you should go find another game to try to wreck, so you can go stroke your e-peens a bit more on your lame forums.
Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2012-07-25 18:38:16 UTC
Dave stark wrote:

the difference is, concord is the only defense that high sec miners have. high sec will never have intel on par with alliance intel channels in null, rarely will you have people ready to warp to you in combat ships if you really mess up and get tackled, etc.

Lol

Thanks for illustrating how little you understand nulsec operations.

Dave stark
#156 - 2012-07-25 18:39:26 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
the difference is, concord is the only defense that high sec miners have. high sec will never have intel on par with alliance intel channels in null, rarely will you have people ready to warp to you in combat ships if you really mess up and get tackled, etc.

there's a difference between "never being ganked" and "requires some effort/drawback to claim the free kill"


balancing the game around the fact that hiseccers refuse to work together and refuse to fit their ships properly is dumb


even working together you won't get intel on par with alliance intel due to the volume of people passing through systems in high sec. it just isn't possible to get that level of intel to be able to avoid gankers, in addition you can't forcefully remove them like you can in null sec. the problem is you're never going to have a balance between risk and reward for high sec mining. you're going to have mining pinatas or seemingly invincible ungankable ships. you can prefer it one way or another but there's never going to be a happy middle ground between the two.

ship fittings have nothing to do with this, and you know it. goons aren't morons, they might be universally hated but nobody could seriously accuse them of being stupid. theyre fully aware that their bounties are enough to fund ships to gank even a properly fit hulk so please don't give me the "fit your ships properly" line.
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#157 - 2012-07-25 18:39:31 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
the difference is, concord is the only defense that high sec miners have. high sec will never have intel on par with alliance intel channels in null, rarely will you have people ready to warp to you in combat ships if you really mess up and get tackled, etc.

there's a difference between "never being ganked" and "requires some effort/drawback to claim the free kill"


balancing the game around the fact that hiseccers refuse to work together and refuse to fit their ships properly is dumb


why do you care how hi-sec players play the game?
Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#158 - 2012-07-25 18:39:42 UTC
arcca jeth wrote:
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
A pr0 tanked hulk RIGHT NOW can reach 30-40k EHP even without dumb faction mods. After the buff, it's easily double that. The other ships are going to be even better. I am fitting a battle skiff as we speak.


you reap what you sow. Maybe Goons shot themselves in the foot here. And if they didn't, what are you doing here arguing with miners for then? You stomped around in the sandbox long enough and CCP recognized that GOONS do not make this game nor do they determine what CCP's development plans are. So they started to cater to the other players that have been screaming for these changes for years. And here Goons are complaining about it? It's about time the shoe was on the other foot and you don't like it. This is what happens when you **** in the wind, it sprays back into your face and some of it gets into your mouth. All of you should go find another game to try to wreck, so you can go stroke your e-peens a bit more on your lame forums.


This man appears to be mad.
So, so very angry.

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#159 - 2012-07-25 18:39:51 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
... and it was so stupid that CCP implemented mining ships?


and then decided that they should never be ganked ever because, as they have shown through their actions (repeated concord buffs, removal of insurance from concord kills, mining barge HP buff) hisec miners are a protected class



Not really protected since you can gank them. However if you really think it's a good game balance to be able to kill 300M ships (some times more) with a simple 3M T1 fitted destroyer, then this is an endless discussion with fake arguments.

You wanted high sec income nerf:
-incursions nerf: check
-wrecks loot severely nerf: check
-missions level/rewards nerf: check
-mining ships mine too much, therefore need to mine less: check

So you can't just pick a 3M ship and kill mining barges any more in a few days again, just take more ships and kill it.

Another idea, start massively ganking T1 haulers, mission ships and alike and when CCP buffs those because players get tired and leave the game, instead of crying about CCP buffing them just ask yourself if your actions didn't helped or forced CCP to do it faster to avoid accounts bleeding.
What is so hard for you to understand your actions WILL ALWAYS bring consequences. Just deal with it.

I play in Null, I don't mine but I just can't understand this mindless stupidity consisting on doing whatever just to ruin some players game continuously with such false arguments to cover the pleasure of bulling the weaker.

brb

Dave stark
#160 - 2012-07-25 18:40:34 UTC
Fuujin wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

the difference is, concord is the only defense that high sec miners have. high sec will never have intel on par with alliance intel channels in null, rarely will you have people ready to warp to you in combat ships if you really mess up and get tackled, etc.

Lol

Thanks for illustrating how little you understand nulsec operations.



been mining in nullsec before, never managed to get tackled. i think i know enough. yeah i know you won't last long if you get tackled and how in the hell some one gets tackled to begin with is beyond me. however the fact remains in null sec the chance people are there to do so is much higher than in high sec.