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Initial mining barge changes are on the test server
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Darveses
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#161 - 2012-07-25 15:29:54 UTC
Sorry if I missed it, but has anyone tried ASB fits yet?
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#162 - 2012-07-25 16:28:41 UTC
i'm back early from my camping trip


No ships have inherent bonuses to certain types of mining anymore (ie no mack bonus for ice, skiff bonus for mercoxit, etc)




Sandrestal wrote:
One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.


USE A MACKINAW. 37500m3 ore hold! for **** sake, CCP is making you make a tradeoff - and not a terribly bad one - of somewhat lower yield for less attention required.





Tau Cabalander wrote:
Denidil wrote:
i was able to get the tanking attributes of the hulk modified - and here is the fit comparison for the following fit [which requires a CPU implant]

[Hulk, Highsec Gank proof]

EFT stats (current): 30,235 EHP (20034 shield / 2292 armor / 7909 structure), 107 dps shield tank [passive recharge],
Pyfa (test server tank): 42,638 [29814 shield / 5010 armor / 7812 structure), 99.382 dps shield tank [passive recharge]

How does that compare to my current fit (requires EG-604 though EG-605 is cheaper as the former is from CONCORD, but not needed with t1 strips):

EFT stats (current): 32,576 EHP (22779 shield / 2265 armor / 7533 structure), 121 DPS shield tank [passive recharge]

[Hulk, EHP]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Internal Force Field Array I

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5
Mining Drone II x5


I haven't yet gotten any ship to mine as much or more than a Hulk on Sisi (built-in +30% yield), but it is more tedious to test when I have to buy and swap modules.


my modified pyfa gives that 46292 EHP



Haffsol fitting a 1.6 billion hulk with ore strip miners and cargohold expanders is just horrible,
[/quote wrote:


and is a loot pinata - even post-buff i would be temped to gank a hulk like that and i ******* mine (on an alt)

[quote=Darveses]Sorry if I missed it, but has anyone tried ASB fits yet?


no, but i will now!

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Dave Stark
#163 - 2012-07-25 16:30:33 UTC
with all due respect, any hulk fit without mlu IIs are pointless.

if you're sacrificing those to fit a tank on a hulk you may as well just mine in a mlu'd skiff, odds are you'll have both more ehp and yield.
Darveses
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2012-07-25 16:31:24 UTC
Denidll wrote:
Darveses wrote:
Sorry if I missed it, but has anyone tried ASB fits yet?


no, but i will now!


Excellent, thanks.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#165 - 2012-07-25 16:51:18 UTC
[Hulk, ASB]

Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Internal Force Field Array I

Medium Ancillary Shield Booster
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5
Mining Drone II x5



requires +3% or better cpu implant - 37k ehp, 268 dps tank


[Mackinaw, 3MLUs MASB [needs implants] copy]

Erin Mining Laser Upgrade
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Supplemental EM Ward Amplifier
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit II


needs a +5% cpu implant - 36.4k ehp, 193 dps tank




[Mackinaw, 2MLUs MASB]

Damage Control II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Basic EM Ward Amplifier
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I


45k ehp, 220 dps tank




[Skiff, 2MLUs ASB]

Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I



56.6k ehp buffer, 207 hp/s passive shield regen, 465 hp/s from ASBs


this is how you win eve (i'm going to have to make a officer fit of this for laughs)

[Skiff, Max ASB]

Damage Control II
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I

Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


92.6k ehp, 434 hp/s passive shield recharge, 560 hp/s ASB boost

SKIFF WITH A 1000 DPS ASB+REGEN TANK? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#166 - 2012-07-25 16:52:01 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
with all due respect, any hulk fit without mlu IIs are pointless.

if you're sacrificing those to fit a tank on a hulk you may as well just mine in a mlu'd skiff, odds are you'll have both more ehp and yield.


you are correct.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#167 - 2012-07-25 16:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Denidil
aaand now for utter hilarity


[Skiff, Max ASB loot pinata]

Damage Control II
Shield Power Relay II

Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Core Defense Field Purger II
Medium Core Defense Field Purger II



130k EHP, 1239 dps/sec regen, 1190 dps/sec ASBS


2429 dps tank'ed Skiff :D gawd ASBs are over powered.


skiff is capable of one strong regen tank though - i crown it the new king of 0.0 mining (outside of fleets)


actual every-day-fit

[Skiff, 2MLUs]

Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II
Shield Recharger II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I



62.8k ehp, 442 hp/s

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#168 - 2012-07-25 17:25:49 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
with all due respect, any hulk fit without mlu IIs are pointless.

if you're sacrificing those to fit a tank on a hulk you may as well just mine in a mlu'd skiff, odds are you'll have both more ehp and yield.


you are correct.

Well, a Hulk has a bonus of 30% and a Skiff has a bonus of 5%. So you need to fit at least 3 MLU to match a Hulk, and the Skiff has 2 low slots (unless that was changed, as I don't see it on pastebin).
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#169 - 2012-07-25 17:34:48 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
with all due respect, any hulk fit without mlu IIs are pointless.

if you're sacrificing those to fit a tank on a hulk you may as well just mine in a mlu'd skiff, odds are you'll have both more ehp and yield.


you are correct.

Well, a Hulk has a bonus of 30% and a Skiff has a bonus of 5%. So you need to fit at least 3 MLU to match a Hulk, and the Skiff has 2 low slots (unless that was changed, as I don't see it on pastebin).


read what we were saying

dual MLU skiff vs non-MLU'ed hulk

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Enaid Verrs
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#170 - 2012-07-25 17:37:07 UTC
So....the retriever is better than the covetor now? :/
Haffsol
#171 - 2012-07-25 17:50:06 UTC
skiff bait best bait >.>
Turifica
Doomheim
#172 - 2012-07-25 17:58:08 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Mining Income is currently driven by Miners.

Not true.

Mining income is driven by demand, or would be in theory, if there weren't gigantic stockpiles all over the place. Mining income is a direct result of market pressures and it's mineral traders that are in control of pricing.
Dave Stark
#173 - 2012-07-25 18:11:53 UTC
Turifica wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Mining Income is currently driven by Miners.

Not true.

Mining income is driven by demand, or would be in theory, if there weren't gigantic stockpiles all over the place. Mining income is a direct result of market pressures and it's mineral traders that are in control of pricing.


it is true. the more you mine the less you get. supply exceeds demand.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#174 - 2012-07-25 18:18:29 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
with all due respect, any hulk fit without mlu IIs are pointless.

if you're sacrificing those to fit a tank on a hulk you may as well just mine in a mlu'd skiff, odds are you'll have both more ehp and yield.

you are correct.

Well, a Hulk has a bonus of 30% and a Skiff has a bonus of 5%. So you need to fit at least 3 MLU to match a Hulk, and the Skiff has 2 low slots (unless that was changed, as I don't see it on pastebin).

read what we were saying

dual MLU skiff vs non-MLU'ed hulk

I did. I even quoted it. Please explain assuming I'm clueless, as I apparently am.

No MLU Hulk: 30% bonus. Dual MLU Skiff: 23% bonus.

That's a 7% cost for durability and a larger ore hold. If the size of the hold is the issue, then of course Dave stark's comment should have mentioned that (i.e, when mining solo) , rather than being an apparent blanket statement.

But if I'm still missing something, please enlighten me. I'm trying to understand these "new" ships, just like everyone else.
Dave Stark
#175 - 2012-07-25 18:28:11 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
with all due respect, any hulk fit without mlu IIs are pointless.

if you're sacrificing those to fit a tank on a hulk you may as well just mine in a mlu'd skiff, odds are you'll have both more ehp and yield.

you are correct.

Well, a Hulk has a bonus of 30% and a Skiff has a bonus of 5%. So you need to fit at least 3 MLU to match a Hulk, and the Skiff has 2 low slots (unless that was changed, as I don't see it on pastebin).

read what we were saying

dual MLU skiff vs non-MLU'ed hulk

I did. I even quoted it. Please explain assuming I'm clueless, as I apparently am.

No MLU Hulk: 30% bonus. Dual MLU Skiff: 23% bonus.

That's a 7% cost for durability and a larger ore hold. If the size of the hold is the issue, then of course Dave stark's comment should have mentioned that (i.e, when mining solo) , rather than being an apparent blanket statement.

But if I'm still missing something, please enlighten me. I'm trying to understand these "new" ships, just like everyone else.


where are you getting 30 and 23 from? perhaps we can clear up some confusion.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#176 - 2012-07-25 19:25:56 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
with all due respect, any hulk fit without mlu IIs are pointless.

if you're sacrificing those to fit a tank on a hulk you may as well just mine in a mlu'd skiff, odds are you'll have both more ehp and yield.

you are correct.

Well, a Hulk has a bonus of 30% and a Skiff has a bonus of 5%. So you need to fit at least 3 MLU to match a Hulk, and the Skiff has 2 low slots (unless that was changed, as I don't see it on pastebin).

read what we were saying

dual MLU skiff vs non-MLU'ed hulk

I did. I even quoted it. Please explain assuming I'm clueless, as I apparently am.

No MLU Hulk: 30% bonus. Dual MLU Skiff: 23% bonus.

That's a 7% cost for durability and a larger ore hold. If the size of the hold is the issue, then of course Dave stark's comment should have mentioned that (i.e, when mining solo) , rather than being an apparent blanket statement.

But if I'm still missing something, please enlighten me. I'm trying to understand these "new" ships, just like everyone else.



Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Dave Stark
#177 - 2012-07-25 19:44:40 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15


0.8175/3.15 = 25.9..%
hulk is ^ much better than a skiff or mack before mlus etc.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#178 - 2012-07-25 20:28:01 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15


0.8175/3.15 = 25.9..%
hulk is ^ much better than a skiff or mack before mlus etc.


wtf? where did you get .8175 from? make sense dammit

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#179 - 2012-07-25 20:42:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Dave stark wrote:
where are you getting 30 and 23 from? perhaps we can clear up some confusion.

No MLU Hulk: 30% = 3% per level of Mining Barge + 3% per level of Exhumers
2x MLU Skiff: 23% = 1% per level of Exhumers + two 9% MLU

As far as I can see, all the ships have otherwise been normalized at 3 strips.

EDIT: I guess they should be multiplicative.
No MLU Hulk: 1.15 * 1.15 = 1.3225
2 MLU Skiff: 1.05 * 1.09 * 1.09 = 1.247505
Still appears to be significantly less.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#180 - 2012-07-25 20:47:11 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
where are you getting 30 and 23 from? perhaps we can clear up some confusion.

No MLU Hulk: 30% = 3% per level of Mining Barge + 3% per level of Exhumers
2x MLU Skiff: 23% = 1% per level of Exhumers + two 9% MLU

As far as I can see, all the ships have otherwise been normalized at 3 strips.


there is your error.. you didn't read the changes to the ship


new skiff:
Quote:

Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to shield hit points
7.5% bonus to all shield resistances

Exhumer skill bonus per level:
1% bonus to Strip Miner yield
1% reduction in Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonus:
200% bonus to Strip Miner yield
66.66% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use



hence we go back to my math:

Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15


i believed they are manipulatively combined not added (the bonuses)

but if they are added

hulk = 3.9 (3*1.3)
Mack = 3.1 (2*1.55)
Skiff = 3.05 (3*1.05)

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.