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Crime & Punishment

 
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Tuskers Announcing Third Party Ransom Service

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Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#61 - 2012-07-25 09:45:21 UTC
Odin Tribus wrote:
Is this the best answer you could come up with for your flawed system?

If you're going to go down the route of idle tittle taddle, why don't you lot fly anything bigger than frigates?


I don't see you presenting a better system or solution. But then ofc creativity or original thought from people that have camped the same 2 gates for half a decade would be nothing short of a minor miracle.Roll
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#62 - 2012-07-25 09:46:07 UTC
Your 3 points have already been addressed, but for your sake I'll go over them again.

1) We have never dishonoured a ransom. In situations where the ransom is invalidated by missiles in the tubes, rats killing the tackled ship etc., we have reimbursed the victim. I'm not even sure how some (not all) of us having blogs could be construed as a negative - perhaps literacy & a sense of community are overrated?
2) As mentioned previously, if this occurs the ransomer can provide a screenshot showing that the target has left the grid & system after letting him go.
3) Learn to bump stuff off stations/stargates? Also, not everyone in space is simply moving from point A to point B, there are explorers, mission runners, PI alts etc. running around in space!

The frigate thing is so silly, our most common ship class is battlecruisers as both EveKill - http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=24195&view=ships_weapons&m=07&y=2012 (feel free to go back a few months!) & BattleClinic shows - http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=corp&name=The+Tuskers#kills.
Odin Tribus
Rancer Revenue And Customs
#63 - 2012-07-25 09:50:26 UTC
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
Odin Tribus wrote:
Is this the best answer you could come up with for your flawed system?

If you're going to go down the route of idle tittle taddle, why don't you lot fly anything bigger than frigates?


I don't see you presenting a better system or solution. But then ofc creativity or original thought from people that have camped the same 2 gates for half a decade would be nothing short of a minor miracle.Roll


I am not here to offer a better solution, I am merly poining out the holes that need to be addressed for it to be successful.
Odin Tribus
Rancer Revenue And Customs
#64 - 2012-07-25 10:00:34 UTC
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
Your 3 points have already been addressed, but for your sake I'll go over them again.

1) We have never dishonoured a ransom. In situations where the ransom is invalidated by missiles in the tubes, rats killing the tackled ship etc., we have reimbursed the victim. I'm not even sure how some (not all) of us having blogs could be construed as a negative - perhaps literacy & a sense of community are overrated?
2) As mentioned previously, if this occurs the ransomer can provide a screenshot showing that the target has left the grid & system after letting him go.
3) Learn to bump stuff off stations/stargates? Also, not everyone in space is simply moving from point A to point B, there are explorers, mission runners, PI alts etc. running around in space!

The frigate thing is so silly, our most common ship class is battlecruisers as both EveKill - http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=24195&view=ships_weapons&m=07&y=2012 (feel free to go back a few months!) & BattleClinic shows - http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=corp&name=The+Tuskers#kills.


1) This is all on a he said she said basis. I never said blogs were negative did I? Just a requirement to join your lot hence the EVE fame. It seems literacy hasn't rubbed off as you can't read/translate.

2) I hope the screenshot isn't the solution if there's a dispute DURING the ransom. This would significantly hold up proceedings giving the ransomee a chance to escape or get back-up.

3) Bumps off gates and stations do work, I'll concede that however not 100% of the time.

Quote:
Hi United alt, thanks for the bump! Speaking of bumps, you should perhaps learn how to bump people off gates/stations or fight off them!


This is meant to be taken as constructive criticism and I hoped you'd react in a dignified way rather than a big baby initially. Oh and United alt?
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#65 - 2012-07-25 10:18:48 UTC
You are making a claim that we dishonour ransoms. We have evidence that we do honour ransoms - our ransom board, our disused individual threads on our forums & personal testimonials from people who we've ransomed and who've dealt with us. Where is your evidence that we dishonour ransoms other than speculation?

The blog thing is ridiculous. Please list all 86 Tusker blogs + the blogs owned by ex-members or the recruitment requirement that you keep harping on about. Some of us have blogs. Most of us don't.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by a dispute during the ransom? Do you mean if the guy getting ransomed warps off after depositing the ISK but then doesn't confirm that he's safe? In that case, he's already escaped and taking a screenshot will hardly put you in any danger..

Well, when stuff jumps into a pair of 90% webs, range bonused webs and there's Macheriels on the gate, then yes, you have pretty much all the time in the world barring external influences to ransom him.

Yes I am aware of who you are!
Odin Tribus
Rancer Revenue And Customs
#66 - 2012-07-25 10:30:15 UTC
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
You are making a claim that we dishonour ransoms. We have evidence that we do honour ransoms - our ransom board, our disused individual threads on our forums & personal testimonials from people who we've ransomed and who've dealt with us. Where is your evidence that we dishonour ransoms other than speculation?

The blog thing is ridiculous. Please list all 86 Tusker blogs + the blogs owned by ex-members or the recruitment requirement that you keep harping on about. Some of us have blogs. Most of us don't.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by a dispute during the ransom? Do you mean if the guy getting ransomed warps off after depositing the ISK but then doesn't confirm that he's safe? In that case, he's already escaped and taking a screenshot will hardly put you in any danger..

Well, when stuff jumps into a pair of 90% webs, range bonused webs and there's Macheriels on the gate, then yes, you have pretty much all the time in the world barring external influences to ransom him.

Yes I am aware of who you are!


I'm afraid you don't know who I am as I have absolutely no idea what you're getting so uppity about.

I have never said or breathed anything about you dishonouring ransoms, why would you say that? Have you? Is your guilty conscience eating away at you?

I never mentioned anything about 86 Tusker blogs. If that's how many you have then congratulations!

The dispute scenario that came to mind was that you may give the ISK back to the ransomee due to a lie therefore rendering the situation null and void.

Once again I am trying to offer constructive criticism however you seem to have jumped so some sort of conclusion about who I am supposed to be. I fear for the people in your channel as your behaviour so far has not shown any signs that you're trustworthy.
Strider Hiryu
Insane Shadow Boxers
#67 - 2012-07-25 10:49:37 UTC
Jaxley wrote:

d.If the victim claims to have paid the ISK to the corp wallet and you don't have the corp roles to check, request to be paid again and ensure that the ISK that went to the corp wallet will be returned fully and asap.
(Tough luck if they can't pay you specifically upon request.)


Please elaborate.
SB Rico
Sumo Wrestlers
#68 - 2012-07-25 11:07:00 UTC  |  Edited by: SB Rico
Strider Hiryu wrote:
Jaxley wrote:

d.If the victim claims to have paid the ISK to the corp wallet and you don't have the corp roles to check, request to be paid again and ensure that the ISK that went to the corp wallet will be returned fully and asap.
(Tough luck if they can't pay you specifically upon request.)


Please elaborate.


Hold on one second, so lets say I ransom a tengu in a belt for all the isk he has (say 350mil), he sends it to you guys, but to your corp wallet which the "representative"couldn't confirm. Now he has no isk left, but is expected to pay you again which he can't. End result, due to an over complex system which has not been fully worked through, He loses his ship which he need not have and can't replace, I don't get paid.

Mebbe think this bit through a little more, work out the kinks and issues that have in fact been pointed out.

Oh and as for learning to bump, if you can teach me how to bump a pod i would love to learn.

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#69 - 2012-07-25 11:09:11 UTC
Odin Tribus wrote:
I have never said or breathed anything about you dishonouring ransoms, why would you say that? Have you? Is your guilty conscience eating away at you?


Really?

Odin Tribus wrote:
1) The Tuskers could just take the ISK and not give it to you. I know they'll say they got this gay code but that in itself could just be an elaborate ploy to gain your trust.


Odin Tribus wrote:
I never mentioned anything about 86 Tusker blogs. If that's how many you have then congratulations!


We have 86 current Tuskers. If we require members to have a blog, surely there would be 86 Tusker blogs out there.

Odin Tribus wrote:
The dispute scenario that came to mind was that you may give the ISK back to the ransomee due to a lie therefore rendering the situation null and void.


Once again, if the ransomee and the ransomer are in disagreement regarding the situation, then the ransomer can provide a screenshot of the ransomee safely away - not in local and not on grid for example.
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#70 - 2012-07-25 11:13:06 UTC
Strider Hiryu wrote:
Jaxley wrote:

d.If the victim claims to have paid the ISK to the corp wallet and you don't have the corp roles to check, request to be paid again and ensure that the ISK that went to the corp wallet will be returned fully and asap.
(Tough luck if they can't pay you specifically upon request.)


Please elaborate.


As stated above, your ransom may not be handled by a Director, but instead by a "regular" Tusker who will not have access to the corp wallet. If the ransomee sends the ISK to the corp wallet by mistake (instead of to the individual Tusker), then he will have to resend it and we will transfer the mistaken payment back to him once a Director logs on. If this is the case - tough luck, he's out of ISK until we get someone who has the roles on to check.

This is the same situation as ransoming him yourself and he sends the ISK to your corp wallet, but you don't have roles to confirm this and there is no Director on.
SB Rico
Sumo Wrestlers
#71 - 2012-07-25 11:15:59 UTC  |  Edited by: SB Rico
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
Strider Hiryu wrote:
Just to clarify, does a tuskers representative fly to the place where to ransom is occuring?

Seeing as you guys only fly frigs that shouldnt be too much of a problem.

I can only see one problem with this service you offer.
If the person being ransomed gives tuskers the isk, the pirate let him go, but the person being ransomed simply says he is still being tackled, who will get the isk? Without someone on grid to confirm this, I'm assuming the person being ransomed will get thier isk back?

Anyways, good luck in this venture and may your frigates forever fly fast!


No, we do it remotely in the channel.

Quote:
This service is generally not aimed at larger, more established pirate corporations/alliances. Those organizations should have their own built up reputation. However, if they move outside their comfort zone (for the united this would be outside the hagilur pocket...) and try to ransom people there, they might not be as well known and the ransom could fail. That's where this service comes in.

This service is basicially for two groups of users:

1) Smaller, less known pirate corporations who can use our reputation to secure a ransom
2) Larger pirate corporations who are trying to ransom in areas they are not well known in, but we are.

Hope that helps!


Why didn't you state this in the beginning and target those who would most likely use your service?


We contacted smaller, less known pirate corporations (that we know of) ourselves, but by contacting the larger ones who might know other, smaller corporations, we hoped to widen the amount of corporations we could reach. So yes, we did do this, albeit not as directly as we should have in hindsight. Some people are just sensitive I guess, as this thread shows. Roll

...

Yes there is an issue with many bears not being aware of us, despite us being a "household name" for pirate corporations IMO. Hopefully, enough of them are aware of us (judging by local in high sec when we pass through, when we enter wormholes or even when they roam low sec) via podcasts, our blogs, eve uni talks etc. for a sizable amount to agree once they hear we are involved. Perhaps a series of testimonials from "e-famous" players could help convince others?

To be honest, we roam far, we're adaptable enough to fight most gangs/targets we run across and we have no blues to not run into issues such as having too few targets. Most information that you can gleam from a ransom offered by this service would appear on a killboard instead - system, time of day, people involved, ships involved etc. and we do (individually) browse killboards of other pirates to see how our competition is doing, therefore this information would be out there in one form or another.

We could expand the service, but we're just stepping into it and would like to ease into the whole 3rd party deal...


Right first part a simple we are sorry to have bothered you to the larger pirate corp ceos by mail please and we will call it quits.

Second part if by your own admission you are not that well known to carebears, what is the point of or value to this service. If they don't know you why would they trust you?
As for "e-famous" players supporting you I am sure they would in exchange for isk, why should they work for free when you don't want to?
In fact if these players have a rep that would make people trust you I would suggest to them they are better off providing the service themselves rather than entrusting their good names to someone else.

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.
Odin Tribus
Rancer Revenue And Customs
#72 - 2012-07-25 11:47:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Odin Tribus
Odin Tribus wrote:
I have never said or breathed anything about you dishonouring ransoms, why would you say that? Have you? Is your guilty conscience eating away at you?

-----------


Really?


Yes, really. Show me evidence please.

Odin Tribus wrote:
1) The Tuskers could just take the ISK and not give it to you. I know they'll say they got this gay code but that in itself could just be an elaborate ploy to gain your trust.

----------


I never mentioned anything about 86 Tusker blogs. If that's how many you have then congratulations!

----------


We have 86 current Tuskers. If we require members to have a blog, surely there would be 86 Tusker blogs out there.


I still haven't said anything about 86 Tuskers blogs. You sir, are delusional.

Odin Tribus wrote:
The dispute scenario that came to mind was that you may give the ISK back to the ransomee due to a lie therefore rendering the situation null and void.

----------


Once again, if the ransomee and the ransomer are in disagreement regarding the situation, then the ransomer can provide a screenshot of the ransomee safely away - not in local and not on grid for example.


You haven't answered the dispute I raised nor read it properly.
SB Rico
Sumo Wrestlers
#73 - 2012-07-25 12:15:47 UTC
OK I am going to be the bigger man here myself, and give Tukers a chance to show they have honour, I propose a forum ransom...

Upon a post agreeing to my terms I am actually going to offer a soluton to both issues raised here recently.

The terms:

An apology from a member of The tuskers for bothering my ceo, and by extension insulting my corp/alliance.

If you agree simply post to say you agree, I will then post the solutions, you can then do your part.

Eve can judge then if you/we can be trusted, basically win-win-win.

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.
ANGRY23
Safety Set To Red
Train Wreck.
#74 - 2012-07-25 14:26:48 UTC
Wow u put this up here for discussion and turn into emo whiners when ppl start asking questions about how this is a viable concept. Its over complicated and dumb. Why would anyone who had spent over 5years building a reputation all a sudden find the need to pay a third party for the same thing, its ********.

Once you Tuskers stop feeding the Neg Ten trolls this thread will die and be forgotten about.
MaCoola
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2012-07-25 15:10:16 UTC
Astavia wrote:
Good idea, but all the good Pirate corps honour there word anyways, I know Neg 10 do and The Tuskers, good idea for the lesser known pirate corps and newer pirate corps to get a rep up for being trustworthy



First, as usual the Tuaskers rock. And to respond to the quote: Sadly there are few good pirates left. 99% of them are morons. Which sucks because it ruins it for the good ones.
Jaxley
The Tuskers
#76 - 2012-07-25 15:26:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaxley
Quote:
1) The Tuskers could just take the ISK and not give it to you. I know they'll say they got this gay code but that in itself could just be an elaborate ploy to gain your trust. They'll say there well known around the world of EVE. But are they? Really? Ok, the prerequisite to join is to have a blog so some of you may know them.

7/10


Quote:
Once you Tuskers stop feeding the Neg Ten trolls this thread will die and be forgotten about.

Can't have that, can we? Gotta love C&P.
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#77 - 2012-07-25 15:53:56 UTC
It's funny that negative ten thinks they can somehow speak for the greater pirate community. Also how was you CEO bothered reading/deleting an EVE mail while activating smart bombs can't be that hard surely? Cool

The Tusker plan needs work yes it has some rough edges surely. But before you can build a house you need to put down a foundation. Which is what they're doing they have a plan and a channel. No it probably won't be flawless from day one but nothing ever is. You live 'n learn (and improve) as you go etc.
SB Rico
Sumo Wrestlers
#78 - 2012-07-25 15:55:02 UTC
Jaxley wrote:
Quote:
1) The Tuskers could just take the ISK and not give it to you. I know they'll say they got this gay code but that in itself could just be an elaborate ploy to gain your trust. They'll say there well known around the world of EVE. But are they? Really? Ok, the prerequisite to join is to have a blog so some of you may know them.

7/10


Quote:
Once you Tuskers stop feeding the Neg Ten trolls this thread will die and be forgotten about.

Can't have that, can we? Gotta love C&P.



Just agree to apologise to my ceo in this thread and you will actually get some constructive help. It would also show that you were willing to work with Pirate corps, but lets be honest I suspect you will ignore this and show us how prepared you truely are to work with us rather than try and act like some superior entity, which imo you are not.

And remember my terms simply said to agree, then I give the 2 solutions.

You actually don't have to apologise till after I do my part, hence if I am lieing I look like a fool. OFC if I am telling the truth that I have 2 solutions and you are serious about this working you might as well do this.

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.
SB Rico
Sumo Wrestlers
#79 - 2012-07-25 15:57:26 UTC
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
It's funny that negative ten thinks they can somehow speak for the greater pirate community. Also how was you CEO bothered reading/deleting an EVE mail while activating smart bombs can't be that hard surely? Cool

The Tusker plan needs work yes it has some rough edges surely. But before you can build a house you need to put down a foundation. Which is what they're doing they have a plan and a channel. No it probably won't be flawless from day one but nothing ever is. You live 'n learn (and improve) as you go etc.


I am not speaking for/to the greater pirate community, I am even offering to help. However suggesting we need to use a third party to prove our honour after 5 years is an insult.

By the way has anyone ever seen one of these black rebel rifter club dudes in space, cos I only ever seen em in forums.

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.
Jaxley
The Tuskers
#80 - 2012-07-25 16:16:26 UTC
As the one responsible for the concept and launch of the service, I have the feeling that we're adequately prepared.

The few issues and small loopholes have been brought up elsewhere and we were able to plug them in our public protocol (http://the-tuskers.info/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3767). Short version: dude paid us, says he's still captive, pirates say nuh-uh, we wait 24h and look for an API verified killmail before the ISK changes hands again.

If things go smoothly, the whole thing really adds maybe a minute to each ransom. Dude is stalling, he dies, as usual.

Whether or not you'd like to give us more input is up to you, but I wouldn't mind discussing in private where and how we offended or wronged you that it warrants a public apology.
I hold no personal grudges against Neg 10, so I don't see why we couldn't resolve any quarrels.