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Rifter NEEDS a shield boost bonus

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Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#21 - 2012-07-24 21:51:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
To be clear, the shield boost bonus isn't for the Rifter. We have something special in mind for it. Cool


Uh oh! Sounds scary! Shocked Will it be awesome, terribad, or meh?? Need to knooooow!

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-07-24 21:58:58 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
def do not want the rifter to be better than the slasher. I even want the probe personally to have a 10% bonus to armor hp per level as it's role bonus due to it's description saying it's suppose to be the hardest minmatar frigate to kill.

I just saw that the slasher was better than the rifter in just about every way. So giving it something to stand apart, not stand above the slasher is the goal here.

I'm calling it, a 50% reduction in shield booster cap use . :P

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#23 - 2012-07-24 22:40:54 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
def do not want the rifter to be better than the slasher. I even want the probe personally to have a 10% bonus to armor hp per level as it's role bonus due to it's description saying it's suppose to be the hardest minmatar frigate to kill.

I just saw that the slasher was better than the rifter in just about every way. So giving it something to stand apart, not stand above the slasher is the goal here.

I'm calling it, a 50% reduction in shield booster cap use . :P


Yes, but if not on the Rifter, which is supposedly the only tank-specialty ship (combat vessel) then where? Perhaps the Breacher? Bombardment vessels were supposed to have halfway decent tanks, but still ... wouldn't expect them to be tankier than combat vessels ...

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#24 - 2012-07-24 22:42:46 UTC
My guess is that it ties in somehow with rebalancing the ancillary shield boosters. A reduction in cap use doesn't help with the ASB much, so there's probably some sort of special rebalance in mind with those. But still, if not on the rifter, then where?

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#25 - 2012-07-24 23:30:32 UTC
Aurora RedNova wrote:
... and has the ability as only one of them to choose damage type.
..



Why do people keep saying this? Any frig that fits rockets or missiles also gets to choose damage types. And even gets T2 versions of all damage types, where as projectiles only get T2 explosive.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#26 - 2012-07-24 23:34:25 UTC
Manssell wrote:
Aurora RedNova wrote:
... and has the ability as only one of them to choose damage type.
..



Why do people keep saying this? Any frig that fits rockets or missiles also gets to choose damage types. And even gets T2 versions of all damage types, where as projectiles only get T2 explosive.


Not to mention that this is generally balanced by projectiles and missiles doing less overall damage than hybrids and lasers, in addition to what you just mentioned. Some people just speak before they think things through, I guess.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
MintyRoadkill
Vulture Enterprises
OnlyFleets.
#27 - 2012-07-25 00:27:03 UTC
Manssell wrote:
Aurora RedNova wrote:
... and has the ability as only one of them to choose damage type.
..



Why do people keep saying this? Any frig that fits rockets or missiles also gets to choose damage types. And even gets T2 versions of all damage types, where as projectiles only get T2 explosive.


Frig missiles are horrible, though. And Caldari ships usually get kinetic-only bonuses, so when the only way to have semi-respectable DPS is to use kinetic, no, you're not really choosing your damage type.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#28 - 2012-07-25 00:33:21 UTC
MintyRoadkill wrote:
Manssell wrote:
Aurora RedNova wrote:
... and has the ability as only one of them to choose damage type.
..



Why do people keep saying this? Any frig that fits rockets or missiles also gets to choose damage types. And even gets T2 versions of all damage types, where as projectiles only get T2 explosive.


Frig missiles are horrible, though. And Caldari ships usually get kinetic-only bonuses, so when the only way to have semi-respectable DPS is to use kinetic, no, you're not really choosing your damage type.


lol math fail. Too much effort? When the DPS that you do is determined in a large part (arguably mostly) by the speed, sig, and resist profile of whatever you're shooting at, what that kinetic bonus winds up giving you us ultra-high dps against anything with a kinetic weakness (such as most reasonably fit Minmatar ships, as one example) and thanks to T2 damage-specific ammo, acceptable-to-great DPS against any other weakness.

Combined with the fact that missiles allow you to not give a **** about transversal velocity or falloff, the argument against the kinetic bonus becomes quite negligible.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-07-25 00:34:46 UTC
Mechael wrote:

Yes, but if not on the Rifter, which is supposedly the only tank-specialty ship (combat vessel) then where? Perhaps the Breacher? Bombardment vessels were supposed to have halfway decent tanks, but still ... wouldn't expect them to be tankier than combat vessels ...



Ooow, would love to see Breacher (and The Probe and just about any other non-Rifter/Slasher) frig have a decent piece of the cake.

But regarding Breacher, we'd have to look at Missile Frigs like Kestrel first, so that it is king of its class in that missle-frig case.


Somewhere, I find those "bombardment frigs" need specific special Hi/med modules for their role or they will end up as they are before this love-patch attention. I don't know, something like multi-lauch / auto-FOF (with penalties of some sort) just to spice things up. Something to ensure that these fragile frigs must be dealt.


However, one must be clear that it doesn't end up in something like WoW.
OTOH, I got to say, having certain ship powers like in Star Trek Online for specific weapon types woudl be cool, but in the end -> This ain't Star Trek.


Just find that there has to be a distinct-nowadays. Covops has stealth-warp/probing.
Recon has Webbing/Scraming/Jamming/Ewar etc
T1 BCs have facemelt stuff.


Anyways, I'm getting off track Pirate.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
MintyRoadkill
Vulture Enterprises
OnlyFleets.
#30 - 2012-07-25 00:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: MintyRoadkill
Mechael wrote:
MintyRoadkill wrote:
Manssell wrote:
Aurora RedNova wrote:
... and has the ability as only one of them to choose damage type.
..



Why do people keep saying this? Any frig that fits rockets or missiles also gets to choose damage types. And even gets T2 versions of all damage types, where as projectiles only get T2 explosive.


Frig missiles are horrible, though. And Caldari ships usually get kinetic-only bonuses, so when the only way to have semi-respectable DPS is to use kinetic, no, you're not really choosing your damage type.


lol math fail. Too much effort? When the DPS that you do is determined in a large part (arguably mostly) by the speed, sig, and resist profile of whatever you're shooting at, what that kinetic bonus winds up giving you us ultra-high dps against anything with a kinetic weakness (such as most reasonably fit Minmatar ships, as one example) and thanks to T2 damage-specific ammo, acceptable-to-great DPS against any other weakness.

Combined with the fact that missiles allow you to not give a **** about transversal velocity or falloff, the argument against the kinetic bonus becomes quite negligible.


T2 Minmatar ships specifically are weak to kinetic, yes. But kinetic is not a good damage type in the big picture. Why do you think almost all projectile pilots fit EMP, or at the very least, Phased Plasma?

Rockets, which allow you to have passable on-paper DPS, do nothing even close to full damage against a small ship that's moving, and falloff/angular velocity issues aren't present, no, but that actually gives turret users the advantage of being able to fly straight at or away from missile ships to increase their damage, while the speed of the ship will allow it to reduce incoming DPS from missiles, because, as you noticed, angular velocity is not an issue.

As for the math fail, i'm talking about how a Kestrel with 2 BCU II's and 4 Rocket launchers will do 136 DPS with non-kinetic Caldari Navy Rockets, while a similarly fit Merlin with 2 Mag stab II's and 3 Blasters will do 211 DPS with Caldari Navy Antimatter (which has two damage types). How's that for a math fail?
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#31 - 2012-07-25 01:20:10 UTC
Ugh. Just to be clear - any time a ship that has been top dog for a period of time suddenly isn't, it has been nerfed. It's either a direct nerf or - in this case- an indirect nerf via the boosting of everything else. Not enough time has gone by for people to proclaim the rifter dead. Yet we're going to boost the rifter. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we can expect this argument to be repeated with every ship class as we go through rebalancing. I hope to see everyone soon in the 'Waaaa, Moa is OP, Rupture sucks now!' thread.
MintyRoadkill
Vulture Enterprises
OnlyFleets.
#32 - 2012-07-25 01:23:02 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Ugh. Just to be clear - any time a ship that has been top dog for a period of time suddenly isn't, it has been nerfed. It's either a direct nerf or - in this case- an indirect nerf via the boosting of everything else. Not enough time has gone by for people to proclaim the rifter dead. Yet we're going to boost the rifter. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we can expect this argument to be repeated with every ship class as we go through rebalancing. I hope to see everyone soon in the 'Waaaa, Moa is OP, Rupture sucks now!' thread.



Yeah, honestly, the Minmatar had the best Frig, great AFs, the best fast-tackle interceptor, arguably the best cruiser, the best HAC, arguably the best battlecruiser, and good to great battleships. And someone is whining that there's a frigate that's better than the Rifter now.

/shrug. Fly a Caracal, then you can complain about ship balance.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-07-25 01:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Ugh. Just to be clear - any time a ship that has been top dog for a period of time suddenly isn't, it has been nerfed. It's either a direct nerf or - in this case- an indirect nerf via the boosting of everything else. Not enough time has gone by for people to proclaim the rifter dead. Yet we're going to boost the rifter. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we can expect this argument to be repeated with every ship class as we go through rebalancing. I hope to see everyone soon in the 'Waaaa, Moa is OP, Rupture sucks now!' thread.


um its not a nerf or a buff, all of the ships are being redesigned, I noticed a hold in the rebalancing. the rifters role had been taken over.

CCP replied that it's just a temp situation. this isn't old eve balancing where ships get changed once every 3 years, they are resetting the stage for all ship balance in the whole game by removing ship tiers.

Last change the rifter got no changes, so it's just being left behind. But in fact that have plans so sweet.

Your argument seems to be, "psft do a bad job removing ship tiers because **** the rifter whiners"

you know I also made a topic with changes to every single frigate in the whole game to bring them all in line with other. Speaking of which maybe I'll update and bump that post once I'm done making my tracking tutorial.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
MintyRoadkill
Vulture Enterprises
OnlyFleets.
#34 - 2012-07-25 01:29:55 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Ugh. Just to be clear - any time a ship that has been top dog for a period of time suddenly isn't, it has been nerfed. It's either a direct nerf or - in this case- an indirect nerf via the boosting of everything else. Not enough time has gone by for people to proclaim the rifter dead. Yet we're going to boost the rifter. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we can expect this argument to be repeated with every ship class as we go through rebalancing. I hope to see everyone soon in the 'Waaaa, Moa is OP, Rupture sucks now!' thread.


um its not a nerf or a buff, all o the ships are being redesigned, I noticed a hold in the rebalancing. the rifters role had been taken over.

CCP replied that it's just a temp situation. this isn't old eve balancing where ships get changed once every 3 years, they are resetting the stage for all ship balance in the whole game by removing ship tiers.

Last change the rifter got no changes, so it's just being left behind. But in fact that have plans so sweet.


It didn't get changes because as the devs said at the time, it's perfectly fine the way it is. It's been the best combat frigate for years, so they didn't break it. They fixed the other broken brawler ships out there. Now the Rifter is just the 2nd or 3rd best frigate instead of the best.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-07-25 01:37:12 UTC
i didn't say they broke it. The goal to give each ship a role. The slasher has the SAME ROLE. I didn't say the rifter was weaker I said it just got 100% replaced.

also what do you means by at the time? This is a large ongoing project, we've had ship changes every 4-5 weeks. it's obviousthey will keep changing things untill each frigate is just as good as the others.

I'm sorry if your stuck in the old mind set of eve, where each race has ONE best frigate, ONE best BAttlecruiser, ONE best battleship.

But that's leaving the game, and I won't be sad to see it go. The rifter should not be bbuffed to be stronger than the slasher, it should get a new role. even if the role is weaker than the current rifter, that would be a PLUS. so even if the new bonus "nerfed" the rifter, as long as it gets it's own role it's a good thing.

But you just keep pew pewing.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-07-25 01:41:33 UTC
in other words, the rifter is not nerfed or too weak, and I'm not whining. The rifter is a relic, it's part of an old balance system
Every other race now has a combat frigate with a damage and a tanking bonus. The rifter should be updated to fill it's spot in the no frigate ranks.

It needed this change even before the slasher and every other attack frigate got it's new role.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
MintyRoadkill
Vulture Enterprises
OnlyFleets.
#37 - 2012-07-25 01:51:43 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
i didn't say they broke it. The goal to give each ship a role. The slasher has the SAME ROLE. I didn't say the rifter was weaker I said it just got 100% replaced.

also what do you means by at the time? This is a large ongoing project, we've had ship changes every 4-5 weeks. it's obviousthey will keep changing things untill each frigate is just as good as the others.

I'm sorry if your stuck in the old mind set of eve, where each race has ONE best frigate, ONE best BAttlecruiser, ONE best battleship.

But that's leaving the game, and I won't be sad to see it go. The rifter should not be bbuffed to be stronger than the slasher, it should get a new role. even if the role is weaker than the current rifter, that would be a PLUS. so even if the new bonus "nerfed" the rifter, as long as it gets it's own role it's a good thing.

But you just keep pew pewing.


I'm not stuck in that mindset. Eve itself is.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-07-25 02:00:39 UTC
I think we (or you guys :)) should probabaly see it differently. While there will always be some frigate that will do a specific job best, I think we need to get away from the "Best Frigate" award subject. It is pretty much the reason why the other frigates just end up in the shadow outside the spotlight.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
MintyRoadkill
Vulture Enterprises
OnlyFleets.
#39 - 2012-07-25 02:03:28 UTC
Deena Amaj wrote:
I think we (or you guys :)) should probabaly see it differently. While there will always be some frigate that will do a specific job best, I think we need to get away from the "Best Frigate" award subject. It is pretty much the reason why the other frigates just end up in the shadow outside the spotlight.


Of course, i completely agree. I'm eagerly awaiting news of what's becoming of other frigates, destroyers, and cruisers, because i like the extra options of what to fly.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-07-25 02:06:57 UTC
MintyRoadkill wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
i didn't say they broke it. The goal to give each ship a role. The slasher has the SAME ROLE. I didn't say the rifter was weaker I said it just got 100% replaced.

also what do you means by at the time? This is a large ongoing project, we've had ship changes every 4-5 weeks. it's obviousthey will keep changing things untill each frigate is just as good as the others.

I'm sorry if your stuck in the old mind set of eve, where each race has ONE best frigate, ONE best BAttlecruiser, ONE best battleship.

But that's leaving the game, and I won't be sad to see it go. The rifter should not be bbuffed to be stronger than the slasher, it should get a new role. even if the role is weaker than the current rifter, that would be a PLUS. so even if the new bonus "nerfed" the rifter, as long as it gets it's own role it's a good thing.

But you just keep pew pewing.


I'm not stuck in that mindset. Eve itself is.


the dev said they want to break that , and I'm going to give feedback if it's not. I'm talking about balance between frigates, just the minmatar line here.

if one race is better than another that's an issue for weapons and ammo balance

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
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