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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Author
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
Goonswarm Federation
#801 - 2011-10-11 07:13:37 UTC
Headerman wrote:
Not sure if this will be read, but...

To CCP Tallest:

With the recent proposed changes to Dreads (removing drones, increasing damage when in siege to 700% as well as the 5% bonus to the Moros), will this see the Moros supplant the Naglfar as the Dread with the (potentially) most DPS?

If so, why should i spend the extra time training for Projectile weapons AND a whole host of missile skills, when i could just train for Blasters and be better?

IMO the nag SHOULD be the premier DPS Dread because of the extra training time involved.

In regards to the drone bays,

- Some time int he near future, i for one would love to see dedicated drone bays on SCs. One for fighters, one for fighter bombers, one for sentries and heavies, one for mediums, one for lights, one for e-war and one for logistics and mining drones. Would be much easier to control.

But please look at the Nag and Moros DPS situation



if you fit blasters on a moros you are daft. there so broken and hit by short range issue, you woudlnt do it, ever

OMG when can i get a pic here

ToXicPaIN
Souls of Steel
#802 - 2011-10-11 07:15:02 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Joe Censored wrote:
So now a single sabre can solo hold a titan hostage for 23 hours straight, no way for a titan to kill it, or escape, in pretty much any circumstance.

Something seriously wrong with that.
Yes there is something seriously wrong with that: the titan pilot's corp/alliance. They need to be fired from the job.


Ok let me throw up a senario here. Tell me what you think.

TEST rolls into a system with a 200 man subcap fleet. The alliance that owns the system can field a maximum of 80 pilots. Currently they have a chance to defend themselves because we'll say they can field 6 Super carriers and 12 Carriers. After this patch, TEST can roll into that system and there is really very little the smaller alliance can do about it. The capitals become all but useless. The cycle times on capital reps make it stupid to choose them over logistics ships. So all in all, they lose everything because the people that don't have them are upset.


Welcome to "Drake Online"
FearOwns
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#803 - 2011-10-11 07:15:05 UTC
Psymn wrote:
Guys, your super caps are no longer solo pwn-wagons. If my baddon gets tackled by a dram theres nothing i can do about it either. Thats why i bring people who can.

I empathise with the folks complaining here that they will have to change their strategy. But any change that encourages inclusion of a wider range of ships in an engagement has to be a good change, right?



Your baddon doesn't cost 20 billion or more :) Lets not even get into the titans.. 80-120Bil...
Joe Censored
Wok The Dog
#804 - 2011-10-11 07:15:36 UTC
FearOwns wrote:
CCP,

I like your progress towards finally fixing a problem that has existed for over two years. However, the approach is not ideal. Supercarriers and Titans are very expensive investments to their owners. The proposed change is simply a slap in the face for those that took the time to actually train and purchase a supercarrier or titan. When I heard of these changes I initially thought it was goon propaganda until I read it here.

Log off timer
The change to log off timers actually makes sense! Once your ships are on field they should remain until the bitter end.

Remote ECM Burst Change
This makes sense!

Drones
I agree that removing drones other then fighters and bombers make sense, however supercarriers should still be allowed to fit 20 fighters and 20 bombers. Especially when considering the fighter sig increase will not allow them to hit a BS that is moving over 100m/s.. You do realize this hurts regular carriers too right?

EHP Reduction/Drones
As I mentioned before, titans and supercarriers are not cheap, by reducing their EHP its simply making them no better then regular carriers which are a fraction of the price, can be insured, require less SP, and can dock. Medium sized gangs can already take down supercarriers with ease. The usual complaint towards supercarriers is that they are extremely effective in killing carriers and dreadnaughts, the proposed changes do nothing to solve this problem. They are still extremely effective capital killers. A solution to this would be along the lines of actually making a supercarrier a "super" carrier and removing bombers completely(where did they even come from?), making supercarriers a viable support platform as they were intended when they were created. I personally would prefer not to have invested 20+Bil on a ship that will now not be able to launch full sets of fighters or bombers(or hit anything smaller then a capital), and can be killed by two hics and a dreadnaught. (The chance of ECM bursting two hics is very slim and killing them will be out of the question considering the fighter change.)

Dreadnaught Changes
I actually agree with all of the proposed changes here. Dreadnaughts are under utilized and this should hopefully make them a bit more popular.

Titan Superweapon
It makes sense to take away the titans ability to 1 shot mach's roaming around null sec. But completely removing their only defense mechanism towards hics/dics is a bit crazy. With the log off timer change, a single hic could hold a titan permanently until PL makes their 4 mid points and 30 minutes later to kill the poor guy. Along with the drone bay removal they have a 0% change of getting the single hic/dic off them.

There are better ways to answer the tears of the hurricane blobs.. Which if I remember correctly, do kill supercarriers quite effectively with the current mechanics..


+1
Ciryath Al'Darion
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
#805 - 2011-10-11 07:16:52 UTC
Psymn wrote:
Guys, your super caps are no longer solo pwn-wagons. If my baddon gets tackled by a dram theres nothing i can do about it either. Thats why i bring people who can.

I empathise with the folks complaining here that they will have to change their strategy. But any change that encourages inclusion of a wider range of ships in an engagement has to be a good change, right?


How would you feel about the change if you were unable to dock the said baddon and change into usefull ship?
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#806 - 2011-10-11 07:16:58 UTC
Psymn wrote:
Guys, your super caps are no longer solo pwn-wagons. If my baddon gets tackled by a dram theres nothing i can do about it either. Thats why i bring people who can.

I empathise with the folks complaining here that they will have to change their strategy. But any change that encourages inclusion of a wider range of ships in an engagement has to be a good change, right?



Yes if CCP took ECM drones or Warrirors II's from your Abaddon a single dramiel would probably hold you down forever.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#807 - 2011-10-11 07:17:39 UTC
Psymn wrote:
Guys, your super caps are no longer solo pwn-wagons. If my baddon gets tackled by a dram theres nothing i can do about it either. Thats why i bring people who can.

I empathise with the folks complaining here that they will have to change their strategy. But any change that encourages inclusion of a wider range of ships in an engagement has to be a good change, right?


Why do people keep claiming that SCs are these all powerful and indestructable ships ? They aren't. As i said before, the right fleet comp is what makes or breaks the fight.

Oh yeah....and your Abaddon doesn't cost 20-60 billion isk.
Wen Jaibao
Perkone
Caldari State
#808 - 2011-10-11 07:17:49 UTC
Honestly the nerf to fighters is a very small price to pay (never really used them anyways since all I do in a carrier is triage) in exchange for this complete and utter devastation of supercaps. Maybe I'll go on 0.0 roams once this hits, since I won't have to worry about someone dropping an iWin titan on me.
malet
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#809 - 2011-10-11 07:17:50 UTC
Psymn wrote:
Guys, your super caps are no longer solo pwn-wagons. If my baddon gets tackled by a dram theres nothing i can do about it either. Thats why i bring people who can.

I empathise with the folks complaining here that they will have to change their strategy. But any change that encourages inclusion of a wider range of ships in an engagement has to be a good change, right?


And does your abbadon cost 85billion isk? you are tackled by a ship of the same value, then thats fair game. If your in a titan your net dies and some random dictors finds you before you disaapear you are then stuck there being held by a ship that cost 30 million isk..

its hardly the same is it?
KFenn
Hail Britannia
#810 - 2011-10-11 07:17:54 UTC
Psymn wrote:
Guys, your super caps are no longer solo pwn-wagons. If my baddon gets tackled by a dram theres nothing i can do about it either. Thats why i bring people who can.


A million times this.

Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#811 - 2011-10-11 07:18:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Velin Dhal wrote:
Ok let me throw up a senario here. Tell me what you think.

TEST rolls into a system with a 200 man subcap fleet
…which has nothing to do with the hyperbole Joe envisioned.
Quote:
Why do people keep claiming that SCs are these all powerful and indestructable ships ? They aren't. As i said before, the right fleet comp is what makes or breaks the fight.
…something that will be far more true now than it was before, when “the right fleet comp” could always be reduced to “bring more SCs”. That was bad, now it is being fixed by making it no longer true.
Cethrie
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#812 - 2011-10-11 07:23:35 UTC
Fiberton wrote:
He used his CSM intel to start pumping out dreads ahead of time.


Hilarious.. While your comment is off topic .. may I add a counter point or two.

A while ago, after goonswarm realised they had a lot of hostile pos's around them and the dread fleet was lacking because everyone had sold them off. Someone in command decided to offer dreads from the alliance to get the shooting done, i.e the fc's would have some dreads. Then PL using 10 super carriers, logged in, cyno 2 jumps and engaged before the siege timer was out, which relieved Goonswarm of those dreads, by killing 1 every 15 seconds. So I suspect your Kugu super spy is perhaps a little wrong or someone has run off with the legion of dreadnoughts The Mittani ordered built, because of his super secret inside knowledge and how this super dread buff will save them from that exact same fate.

Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#813 - 2011-10-11 07:25:19 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Learn to adapt, or you'll never survive in 0.0.


Sign of desperation: calling the other guy a carebear.

What are you, some bitter ex-BoB ******? Quit it with the EVOL slogans.

Cry more little bee, cry more.

Your super e-peen is getting nerfed and you're all floppy.


You realize the "Little Bee" coalition is in full support of this patch...... i dont think you do.

Yes, well aware... I'm just laughing at that little bee up there who is crying bawawawa~

Even funnier is that when he failed to counter me with reasoned arguments he started ad hominem attacks. Pretty failed ones at that.

Weak trolling for a little bee, too much crying, are you sure that he's not one of the 'pay 500m to join us' recruits that someone forgot to kick?

Nyan

Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#814 - 2011-10-11 07:27:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Ok let me throw up a senario here. Tell me what you think.

TEST rolls into a system with a 200 man subcap fleet
…which has nothing to do with the hyperbole Joe envisioned.
Quote:
Why do people keep claiming that SCs are these all powerful and indestructable ships ? They aren't. As i said before, the right fleet comp is what makes or breaks the fight.
…something that will be far more true now than it was before, when “the right fleet comp” could always be reduced to “bring more SCs”. That was bad, now it is being fixed by making it no longer true.


What I am saying here is that alliances with massive amounts of low SP toons will be able to completely dominate high SP toons just because we aren't sitting in a super alliance. Why should anyone be forced into an alliance they don't want to join just so they can own sov ?
Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
#815 - 2011-10-11 07:28:02 UTC
it's been said a number of times, but...
tracking links on titans should be stopped
tracking links on dreads should be allowed, even while in siege mode.

dreads are the baby cap which can quickly be nuked off the field by a titan DD and SC fighter bombers.
yet dreads can fill the role of taking a sizable bite out of a subcap fleet.

someone also mentioned an issue with the phoenix/leviathan
turrets can be remotely linked
missile explosion radii/velocity cannot
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#816 - 2011-10-11 07:28:39 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Anile8er wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Learn to adapt, or you'll never survive in 0.0.


Sign of desperation: calling the other guy a carebear.

What are you, some bitter ex-BoB ******? Quit it with the EVOL slogans.

Cry more little bee, cry more.

Your super e-peen is getting nerfed and you're all floppy.


You realize the "Little Bee" coalition is in full support of this patch...... i dont think you do.

Yes, well aware... I'm just laughing at that little bee up there who is crying bawawawa~

Even funnier is that when he failed to counter me with reasoned arguments he started ad hominem attacks. Pretty failed ones at that.

Weak trolling for a little bee, too much crying, are you sure that he's not one of the 'pay 500m to join us' recruits that someone forgot to kick?


Ok, you're loads of fun. Lets try this another way then.

Why is it necessary to remove all drones from supercaps, rather than limiting them to a few flights? Answer and I will explain to you why you're wrong.
Psymn
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#817 - 2011-10-11 07:31:02 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
Psymn wrote:
Guys, your super caps are no longer solo pwn-wagons. If my baddon gets tackled by a dram theres nothing i can do about it either. Thats why i bring people who can.

I empathise with the folks complaining here that they will have to change their strategy. But any change that encourages inclusion of a wider range of ships in an engagement has to be a good change, right?



Yes if CCP took ECM drones or Warrirors II's from your Abaddon a single dramiel would probably hold you down forever.


A dram fitted for cepting can 99% outrun ec-300's and 100% outrun warriors.


Sure guys SC's are expensive. Stop thinking about the hole in your wallet and start thinking about gameplay. Thats a bit harsh i know but maybe you all have milked the flavor-of-the-last-2-years and now have to learn to protect against their new weaknesses?

That was a rhetorical question btw. I have a feeling that caps will still be rarely deployed in low-sec off station since like has been said, supers can still make short work of them.
Only difference is that someone might lose a super or two due to their expectation that with a large price tag comes immunity to risk.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#818 - 2011-10-11 07:32:46 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
What I am saying here is that alliances with massive amounts of low SP toons will be able to completely dominate high SP toons
This is a good thing. SP is not a measurement of power — we are not playing an XP/Level/Class game here.
Quote:
Why should anyone be forced into an alliance they don't want to join just so they can own sov ?
You shouldn't, but that is an issue with the sov system and with human nature far more than it is an issue with ships. In fact, ships are not a factor in that equation because your “pwn the n00bs” ship that you can use to kick those hordes out can (and will) be used against you to kick you out, and leaving it in is bad for balance.

Between broken game and you not holding sov and balanced game and you (still) not holding sov, the latter is better.
BadBoyBubby
Cult of the Crayon
#819 - 2011-10-11 07:32:57 UTC
Most of these changes...meh.

But reducing the drone bay on supercaps to 25 fighters/bombers max? That is seriously dumb. You've already taken out all the drones. You've nerfed fighters and fighter bombers again (how people forget so quickly) on sig radius, so they can't do much to sub caps anyway. So why reduce the drone bay capacity to the point where you can't even load a full flight of each type?? Seriously, WTF????

I'll repeat the question asked so often and never answered: DO CCP DEVS ACTUALLY PLAY EVE???
Usurpine
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#820 - 2011-10-11 07:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Usurpine
Premeir Eden wrote:
Magic Crisp wrote:
Dear CCP,

I have a concern here on the dreads. Dreads are not used within fleet fights because it's impossible to keep them alive. Without siege mode they don't really do more damage than a good battleship, but BSs can be moved around using regular gates and much more agile. When they go to siege mode, they just die, becuase the tanking bonus of the siege module is useless above a small fleet's scale.

So, as I've experienced, the problem with fielding dreads in large fleets, and against supercaps, is the tanking, they just can't be kept alive. If you could find a fair way for the dreads to recieve logistics AND do a decent damage, that'd be a start.

As a second point, carriers could hit smaller targets with fighters, that was pretty nice in small fleets. Smaller targets, like cruiser-sized vessels. Weren't 100% hitrate, but still was decent enough to be effective. If you nerf this even more, this might cause an issue.


i just thought of a solution for dreads! just boost damage for dreads, pretty much give em all a base gun damage bonus, like the nightmare's 100% damage bonus, nothing too crazy though. figure out a way to boost their survivability, probally repair bonus or something. (resist bonus?) also give 'em back their drones at least, make 'em as sad as they were before their "boost" at least. if they are "overpowered", just put them back and change their name to something more wimpy, like carenought or something.

I really thought same. Fully agreed with this.