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Initial mining barge changes are on the test server
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Skorpynekomimi
#101 - 2012-07-24 16:04:37 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Two words: Insurance fraud will be back for a limited time!

Mining ship buffs -> more mining -> mineral prices fall. Ship insurance prices are updated periodically. In theory, if mineral prices drop significantly before the insurance prices update, we'll see a boom in insurance fraud.




Woohoo! I'll get to throwing myself in front of ships in crowded undocks! Can't wait to see how far I'll end up being hurled.

Economic PVP
stoicfaux
#102 - 2012-07-24 16:04:55 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Two words: Insurance fraud will be back for a limited time!

Mining ship buffs -> more mining -> mineral prices fall. Ship insurance prices are updated periodically. In theory, if mineral prices drop significantly before the insurance prices update, we'll see a boom in insurance fraud.




ship mining buffs -> people mining in ships with lower yield -> oh wait....

AFK friendly buffs leads to more AFK miners, plus the lowered skill requirements. (Nevermind the added NPE content.)

I'm not saying that insurance fraud is guaranteed to happen, but I imagine that these changes are big enough that people will start dumping existing mineral stocks.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#103 - 2012-07-24 16:05:12 UTC
Some of the changes are good (Procurer/Skiff's HP, Retriever/Mackinaw's cargo hold, the mining yield buff for both ship lines and the mercoxit and Ice rigs). But the unilateral buff of mining barge and exhumers EHP is a terrible thing to do.

Not only is it devaluating the Skiff buff (why bother with it when a hulk can easily reach over 40k EHP?), but it is also making the life of afk-miners and bots much easier, all while not adressing the structural issues of the mining profession: boring, poor and lacking improvement.

What the game need is not brick-tanked barge able to survive to multiple suicide tornadoes. These always existed, they're battleships (and now, skiffs). a 25000m3 ore hold is an amusing gimmick, but ultimately reward peoples who play eve afk.

Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is.

Mining dont need a 100k EHP mining barge, nor a barge able to mine 30 minutes without requiring a single click, mining need a ship, or a mechanism, that makes a human better than a script.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#104 - 2012-07-24 16:07:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorian Wylde
Sandrestal wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Sandrestal wrote:
One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.


may i direct you to the mackinaw?


Yes I know. Just that the Hulk, being way more expensive, should be doing more and doing it better than any other mining vessel.



Just that the Hulk, is now meant for mining in a fleet with dedicated haulers, and is no longer meant to be the king of mining. Just that, you're completely ignoring the stated design goals for these changes, and are just whining that you have to fly a different ship to accomplish different goals.

Just that, the changes aren't live yet, and for all we know they'll be adjusting the cost of each ship the same way they're adjusting the training times.


Pisov viet wrote:
So instead of adressing the lack of reward or fun in mining, CCP rewards AFK-ers and botters by making them safer against gankers.

Good move.



Instead of completely overhauling a sizeable portion of the game, which is something everyone whines about but no one actually suggests how to do, they decide to start by changing the ships around. Resulting in 6 useful ships, rather than 3.

And anything that makes ganking harder is fine by me, it might actually get those losers out into actual pvp where the other person shoots back. Sorry you don't get to get your jollies off anymore by shooting someone who doesn't want to fight, and isn't equipped to fight back at all. Poor you.
stoicfaux
#105 - 2012-07-24 16:30:49 UTC
Pisov viet wrote:

Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is.

Mining dont need a 100k EHP mining barge, nor a barge able to mine 30 minutes without requiring a single click, mining need a ship, or a mechanism, that makes a human better than a script.

Valid points. However, maybe CCP sees a need to increase subs and is attempting to do so via afk mining, lowered skill requirements for mining, lowered mineral prices to draw in the deathmatch insta-PvP crowd, etc.?

/tinfoil_hat

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Pipa Porto
#106 - 2012-07-24 16:39:21 UTC
Pisov viet wrote:
Your regular miner, that poor **** who was paying attention, who had friends with him, who knew what the hell he was doing, will be left untouched by these changes. His hulk's yield will remain the same, and even going into big scary low/nullsec wont improve his condition much. In the current (and, apparently, future) state, he's still a poor **** who play a role so un-challenging that a bot can fill it, and be just as efficient as he is.


By that measure, Ratters and Mission runners have it even worse. A bot can do their role more efficiently than they can, not just as efficiently.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Athos Maulerant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2012-07-24 16:42:31 UTC
Denidil wrote:
hulk bonuses are unchanged so (so it's mining yield is unchanged) so we can figure out all the mining rates relative to a hulk

these calculations are based on Exhumers V/Barge V char, for mining rock not ice - this is without MLUs


Ship - Strips * modifiers = effective # of strip mining modules

Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675
Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15
Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15

Covetor - 3 strips * 1.2 (barge V) = 3.6
Retriever - 2 strips * 1.5 (role bonus) = 3 strips
Procurer - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) = 3 strips


or % relative to a hulk

Mackinaw: 79.4%
Skiff: 79.4%

Covetor: 90.7%
Retriever: 75.6%
Procurer: 75.6%



note: there is now an ice mining and a mercoxit rig

see thread in the test server forum


note: more posts to come, i'm going to try to find ships with comparable stats (CPU/PG/HP) to post side-by-side

[edit]
note if you fit two MLU's to the exhumers you get the following effective strip miner factors

hulk: 5
mack/skiff: 3.99

and ice and mercoxit "role bonuses" have been moved to rigs [see second page of thread]


This is all good stuff. Has anybody done this calculation for ice mining? It looks like Mackinaw is no longer king of the Ice, but has anybody done the math with the different ice bonuses now?
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-07-24 16:46:40 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Just that, the changes aren't live yet, and for all we know they'll be adjusting the cost of each ship the same way they're adjusting the training times.

Really.. how exactly do you do that for a T2 exhumer whose cost is dictated by the -4ME BPC from invention .. dish out a few more BPO's to a select few in a raffle??
Dave Stark
#109 - 2012-07-24 16:56:10 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Two words: Insurance fraud will be back for a limited time!

Mining ship buffs -> more mining -> mineral prices fall. Ship insurance prices are updated periodically. In theory, if mineral prices drop significantly before the insurance prices update, we'll see a boom in insurance fraud.




ship mining buffs -> people mining in ships with lower yield -> oh wait....

AFK friendly buffs leads to more AFK miners, plus the lowered skill requirements. (Nevermind the added NPE content.)

I'm not saying that insurance fraud is guaranteed to happen, but I imagine that these changes are big enough that people will start dumping existing mineral stocks.



skill requirements for the mackinaw is still exhumers II, unchanged.
and you only get a 37500 ore bay at exhumers V.
Droxlyn
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#110 - 2012-07-24 16:58:45 UTC
Nevryn Takis wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Just that, the changes aren't live yet, and for all we know they'll be adjusting the cost of each ship the same way they're adjusting the training times.

Really.. how exactly do you do that for a T2 exhumer whose cost is dictated by the -4ME BPC from invention .. dish out a few more BPO's to a select few in a raffle??


Unlike regular capsuleers, CCP has god-like powers to edit all BPs to use different numbers. The BOM can change. They have said that they will look at them for the frigates and other ships as they redo them.

Drox
Pipa Porto
#111 - 2012-07-24 16:58:59 UTC
Nevryn Takis wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Just that, the changes aren't live yet, and for all we know they'll be adjusting the cost of each ship the same way they're adjusting the training times.

Really.. how exactly do you do that for a T2 exhumer whose cost is dictated by the -4ME BPC from invention .. dish out a few more BPO's to a select few in a raffle??


By changing what amounts of each moon goo get used. Pretty simple.

Adding a small number of BPOs won't significantly change the final price of any popular T2 item. Inventors dominate the market and set the prices. (Skiffs might be BPO dominated atm because they're not commonly used, but I couldn't say for sure without looking at numbers.)

There might be a few marginal cases where a few BPOs is all that's needed to push BPO production to the point where it can satisfy demand, but those aren't what I'd call popular items.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#112 - 2012-07-24 17:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Dave stark wrote:

skill requirements for the mackinaw is still exhumers II, unchanged.
and you only get a 37500 ore bay at exhumers V.


I found the quote in another thread, but they are apparently planning on tiericiding the Exhumer skill, so all 3 become available at Exhumers I.


EDIT:
Found it. It's actually in this thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1481903#post1481903

"WILL THE EXHUMER SKILL ALSO BE AFFECTED BY THE "TIERICIDE" INITIATIVE? Yes, all Exhumers will now require this skill at level 1 instead of various levels."

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave Stark
#113 - 2012-07-24 17:05:02 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

skill requirements for the mackinaw is still exhumers II, unchanged.
and you only get a 37500 ore bay at exhumers V.


I found the quote in another thread, but they are apparently planning on tiericiding the Exhumer skill, so all 3 become available at Exhumers I.


well that's not implimented on sisi yet.
stoicfaux
#114 - 2012-07-24 17:11:38 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

skill requirements for the mackinaw is still exhumers II, unchanged.
and you only get a 37500 ore bay at exhumers V.


I found the quote in another thread, but they are apparently planning on tiericiding the Exhumer skill, so all 3 become available at Exhumers I.


well that's not implimented on sisi yet.

Well it took four seasons for the Cylons to implement their plan, so let's assume that sisi is a work in progress?

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890
Quote:
Before we forget, part of what players now call “tiericide” is to look at skill requirements. We are not pleased with how they work specifically with this ship class, since the Hulk is currently only a few hours away from the Covetor in terms of skill training. That is why, after the change, all tech 1 mining barges will now only require the Mining Barge Skill at level 1.

We will most likely add the new ORE frigate skill at 4 as a Mining Barge nested prerequisite though


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Dave Stark
#115 - 2012-07-24 17:14:44 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

skill requirements for the mackinaw is still exhumers II, unchanged.
and you only get a 37500 ore bay at exhumers V.


I found the quote in another thread, but they are apparently planning on tiericiding the Exhumer skill, so all 3 become available at Exhumers I.


well that's not implimented on sisi yet.

Well it took four seasons for the Cylons to implement their plan, so let's assume that sisi is a work in progress?

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890
Quote:
Before we forget, part of what players now call “tiericide” is to look at skill requirements. We are not pleased with how they work specifically with this ship class, since the Hulk is currently only a few hours away from the Covetor in terms of skill training. That is why, after the change, all tech 1 mining barges will now only require the Mining Barge Skill at level 1.

We will most likely add the new ORE frigate skill at 4 as a Mining Barge nested prerequisite though




and what do tech 1 mining barges have to do with mackinaws?
Verrer
Darkstar Interstellar Demolitions Conglomerate
#116 - 2012-07-24 17:17:15 UTC
I was wondering if anyone knows wether mined ore (in lets say a hulk) will switch to your normal cargo hold if your ore hold is full, or when the ore hold is full(Which is rather small with a hulk) do you get the hold full message? thankyou
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-07-24 17:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevryn Takis
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nevryn Takis wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Just that, the changes aren't live yet, and for all we know they'll be adjusting the cost of each ship the same way they're adjusting the training times.

Really.. how exactly do you do that for a T2 exhumer whose cost is dictated by the -4ME BPC from invention .. dish out a few more BPO's to a select few in a raffle??


By changing what amounts of each moon goo get used. Pretty simple.

Adding a small number of BPOs won't significantly change the final price of any popular T2 item. Inventors dominate the market and set the prices. (Skiffs might be BPO dominated atm because they're not commonly used, but I couldn't say for sure without looking at numbers.)

There might be a few marginal cases where a few BPOs is all that's needed to push BPO production to the point where it can satisfy demand, but those aren't what I'd call popular items.

Oh you mean they're going to alter the moon goo requirements for the sub-components to make the sub-components cheaper..
And affect any other T2 ship/module that use the same component ..
Or did you mean they're going to rebalance the sub-components, reducing them by at least 50% ..
You do know that over half the cost of most of the ORE ships comes from just 1 component...

P.S.if you thought that the BPO comment was in any way serious I think you need to do a little research on the forums...
Infinite Force
#118 - 2012-07-24 17:26:33 UTC
Verrer wrote:
I was wondering if anyone knows wether mined ore (in lets say a hulk) will switch to your normal cargo hold if your ore hold is full, or when the ore hold is full(Which is rather small with a hulk) do you get the hold full message? thankyou

No. Holds are separate on ships. There is no spillover, just stopage.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Leeloo Killik
Fweddit
Free Range Chikuns
#119 - 2012-07-24 17:29:06 UTC
Pisov viet wrote:
Mining dont need a 100k EHP mining barge, nor a barge able to mine 30 minutes without requiring a single click, mining need a ship, or a mechanism, that makes a human better than a script.



amen to that
Freezehunter
#120 - 2012-07-24 17:48:15 UTC
Awesome, now mining as a single character, because I don't have 50 alts to make a fleet with, will not be as much of a pain in the ass as it used to be!

Inappropriate signature, CCP Phantom.