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Mining barge changes [now with feedback]
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Dave Stark

Likes received: 7,950

#61 - 2012-07-24 13:01:24 UTC

Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

does the "new" hulk still have a bonus for ice mining?
i strongly feel it should loose that bonus. otherwise i do not see the point of the mackinaw beeing the dedicated ice mining ship.

+1 for the hulk stop beeing the ultimate choice.

the ice bonus has been removed from the mackinaw (it now has cycle bonus to bring it in to line with the exhumer at 0 exhumer skill) and then the hulk gets more yield bonuses to ore and a bigger cycle bonus for ice per exhumer level.

at exhumer 5 the hulk will mine everything faster than any other boat assuming the same boosts. (mlus, rigs etc) however the hulk has a woeful lack of space in comparison to the mackinaw and skiff.

Nagarythe Tinurandir

Einheit X-6

Likes received: 237

#62 - 2012-07-24 13:52:49 UTC

Dave stark wrote:

Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

thx for the info.

but i dont know wether to like this approach or not. it surely is a way. projecting the choice between tank, yield and self sufficency into the exhumers.
this may work for the barges but T2 is all about specialisation. the proposed changes make exhumers a plain upgrade of barges, rather then beeing a way to specialise in something.
i dont think logistic obstacles (small orehold, little space for crystals) is enough to make the other two exhumers worthwhile.

Dave Stark

Likes received: 7,950

#63 - 2012-07-24 13:57:32 UTC

Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

Dave stark wrote:

Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

will it make you feel better if i tell you a 2x mlu mackinaw mines more than a hulk with no mlus?

they all have their uses now, it just comes down to how you mine. if you have an orca alt there's no reason to step out of your hulk unless you're paranoid about gankers in which case a skiff is for you. however if you're not a paranoid orca alt type player then the mack is your new baby.

i was pretty much training an orca alt to go orca/hulk but looking at the size of the new ore bays i think even with max skilled chars 2x mackinaws will be more efficient for me in terms of isk/hour without having to juggle jetcanning on 2 chars at once.

Nagarythe Tinurandir

Einheit X-6

Likes received: 237

#64 - 2012-07-24 14:46:41 UTC

Dave stark wrote:

i never felt the urge to get myself an orca alt. mining ops are more fun, when multiple humans are involved. ^^
all i want to see is more variety in mining ship usage. call me an idealist, but in my little, perfect eve all ships are useful and have a purpose.
i will take a look at sisi as soon as possible to get some first hand info. lets see how this turns out.

but why do you need jet-can mining when you have an orca alt? you can dump the ore directly into the corp holds and move it to the ore hold. at least i think that's what i think orca pilots do...

Dave Stark

Likes received: 7,950

#65 - 2012-07-24 14:51:56 UTC

Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:

Dave stark wrote:

yeah that's what orcas are for, basically mobile jetcans that give boosts.
the thing is, the mackinaw gives you an option not to have to jetcan, at the cost of yield.
just like the skiff gives you the option of being less gankable, at the cost of yield.

all the new barges do is give you a reward for mining less. they all have a purpose, it's just no longer "i mine x ore better" it's now "i do job y better"

Jake Rivers

New Planetary Order

Likes received: 260

#66 - 2012-07-24 14:57:10 UTC

Javajunky wrote:

Hulk needs to have 2100m3 cargo....

I get all the other changes, but seriously you're not give the Hulk enough storage to be able to carry a full set of Mining Crystals?

I mean I really I don't think that is too too much to ask is it?

Java

The small hold is fine when you are just hitting the ABC's, but if you are going after everything then this makes it difficult to carry a full selection of crystals. I will not know til the changes go into effect, but I suspect I will still use my hulks and jet can mine for max yield. With no orca/rorq parked in the anom, as it is not such a great idea when you are in null sec to put extra assets at risk.

I think a simple solution for this would be for CCP to reduce the volume mining crystals take up, making it possible to keep a good selection of crystals in the hold. I know when I am hitting all the rocks, the crystals currently use up about 2k of hold space.

Senex Legio

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#67 - 2012-07-24 15:03:35 UTC | Edited by: Tippia

Infinite Force wrote:

Oh, look. My crystal broke.
Oh, wait, the Orca(s) is/are away dropping ore.

Why is the Orca moving? Why aren't your haulers doing that job? If your Orca is also your hauler, then maybe it's a good thing that you take a little pause before it returns.

Quote:

I really tire of these immature 16 year old arguments. "Put it in the Orca" is not the answer to every mining question.

It is if you're talking about a fleet mining ship that is meant to work with Orca/Rorqual support. You can have 5 crystals ready to go in the caro hold. If you need more variety, spread the task out among the fleet — player A takes ore 1; player B takes ore 2 etc. If you still run out and need something else, ask someone to bring it to you.

The point remains: you're talking about the fleet mining ship, that will have support from haulers and Ore collection ships. Cargo space is not something the individual mining ship need to be worried about. What you should complain about is the meagre space in the supposedly-solo Mack and Retriever — they aren't meant for this kind of busy fleet work, but rather for doing it alone, and they can only carry three crystals.

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Vincent Athena

Photosynth

Likes received: 4,043

#68 - 2012-07-24 15:13:35 UTC

The current "new" Hulk with a 7.5K ore hold can easily handle one cycle, but not two. If it was 7K that would still be true. Put that extra 500 cu m into the hold, for crystals. Its convenient to grab extras from the orca and store them locally. Then a crystal change is just a right click on the miner, rather than finding the correct slot on the orca and dragging it over, all the while your miners are getting out of sync.

So I support a 7k ore hold and a 1K main hold for the Hulk.

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Nagarythe Tinurandir

Einheit X-6

Likes received: 237

#69 - 2012-07-24 15:14:36 UTC

Tippia wrote:

The point remains: you're talking about the fleet mining ship, that will have support from haulers and Ore collection ships. Cargo space is not something the individual mining ship need to be worried about. What you should complain about is the meagre space in the supposedly-solo Mack and Retriever — they aren't meant for this kind of busy fleet work, but rather for doing it alone, and they can only carry three crystals.

[

good point. as i told, i haven't checked the numbers, but if this is true, well we need a fix there.
self-reliance and -sufficiency should include the ability to bring your on variety of crystals.

Sovai Elaaren

KABS Deep Recon Unit

Likes received: 44

#70 - 2012-07-24 16:05:50 UTC

I think the changes are great, overall.

I think the point about carrying spare crystals is valid, however. In large null-sec belts, there's no guarantee that you're going to be close to a hauler of any sort. Making it so you can only carry basically 1 spare set of crystals adds pointless logistics. It's already forced into being a fleet ship by it's small ore hold (which is good), reducing it's efficiency by forcing dock-ups or forcing your orca to be warping around the belt to the various miners it's supporting doesn't seem to add value.

The other point to this is that since this is a fleet ship, it would stand to reason that you might have a greater need for spare crystals because you're going to be mining the belts out faster, thus creating a need to switch asteroid types more often.

I think, as previous posters have pointed out, reducing the size of crystals is a good trade; the cargo bay can stay the same size and remain useless for storing ore, but you can maybe carry enough crystals to mine 3-4 different types of asteroids. I don't think you should be able to carry spares for every ore type, but a bit of flexibility would be nice.

Annette Aumer

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 19

#71 - 2012-07-24 16:08:07 UTC

I for one as a low/mid skill miner am really happy with these changes. I'm also poor so cannot afford to have an alt haul for me.

I do love now that you have the options;

Max Yield - Covetor / Hulk (Fleet ops / Min maxing solo multibox gangs)
Max Tank - Procurer / Skiff ( WH / Deep space dangerous ops)
Max Storage - Retriever / Mac ( Solo Miners / Social players / forum trolls / corp recruiters)


Annette Aumer Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic Likes received: 19	#72 - 2012-07-24 16:10:08 UTC There is one elephant in the room though. if you're mining in a Skiff for example... you're getting 3xyield of 1 strip miner.. only using one crystal? how does the extra ore from the 2 extra crystals in the hulk work out agains the extra cost of 2 more crystals? or is that just a non-issue?

Dave Stark

Likes received: 7,950

#73 - 2012-07-24 16:17:10 UTC

Annette Aumer wrote:

There is one elephant in the room though.

if you're mining in a Skiff for example... you're getting 3xyield of 1 strip miner.. only using one crystal?

how does the extra ore from the 2 extra crystals in the hulk work out agains the extra cost of 2 more crystals? or is that just a non-issue?

the hulk's 3 strips mine more than the skiff's 1 strip due to exhumer bonuses.

Annette Aumer

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 19

#74 - 2012-07-24 16:19:00 UTC

Dave stark wrote:

Annette Aumer wrote:

the hulk's 3 strips mine more than the skiff's 1 strip due to exhumer bonuses.

I'm aware of that. what i'm asking is does the extra crystal consumption weigh correctly with the extra amount of yield?

IE I have zero idea on crystal costs. i only use strip miner I's at the moment.

So i'm not sure if having to use 3 crystals instead of one is a big hit to isk flow.

Vaerah Vahrokha

Vahrokh Consulting

Likes received: 5,809

#75 - 2012-07-24 16:33:17 UTC

Tippia wrote:

Javajunky wrote:

I get all the other changes, but seriously you're not give the Hulk enough storage to be able to carry a full set of Mining Crystals?

Put them in the Orca.

Terrible advice (not unexpected though, you are so biased).

Big mining ops involve multiple corporations, it's the whole reason why they had to revert the last Orca changes to let simple fleet members be able and store minerals in the Orca hold.

Therefore all the non Orca corp members won't be able to take crystals out of the Orca.

As for the subsequent "use haulers" advice, it's terribad as well, and shows you never attended a large mining op.

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Infinite Force

Likes received: 749

#76 - 2012-07-24 16:40:17 UTC

Annette Aumer wrote:

Unless changes have been made, it's my understanding that all crystal damage calculations occur at the beginning of a cycle. It really makes no sense whatsoever to program in a special "X" multiplier for the other barges.

So, in theory, your single crystal on a Skiff could last as long as 3 Crystals on a Hulk.

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Dave Stark

Likes received: 7,950

#77 - 2012-07-24 16:58:45 UTC | Edited by: Dave Stark

Infinite Force wrote:

Annette Aumer wrote:

it's calculated at the end of a cycle, not the beginning.

and yes, you will go through crystals faster in a hulk but crystals are less than 150k each, they're dirt cheap.

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#78 - 2012-07-24 17:11:47 UTC

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Big mining ops involve multiple corporations, it's the whole reason why they had to revert the last Orca changes to let simple fleet members be able and store minerals in the Orca hold.

Therefore all the non Orca corp members won't be able to take crystals out of the Orca.

…sooo… did they revert the change or not? Your “therefore” doesn't make sense. Oh, and even if you use multiple corporations, you can still use Orcas, so you need to be a bit more precise if you want to say something is terrible that you then go on to explain is entirely possible.

Quote:

As for the subsequent "use haulers" advice, it's terribad as well

…as was his insinuation that you're screwed if you can't, personally, carry along 2k m³ worth of crystals, so he'd just be trading one awful strategy for another and not be worse off.

Vaerah Vahrokha

Vahrokh Consulting

Likes received: 5,809

#79 - 2012-07-24 17:40:42 UTC

Tippia wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

…sooo… did they revert the change or not?

Yes they did.

Tippia wrote:

Your “therefore” doesn't make sense. Oh, and even if you use multiple corporations, you can still use Orcas, so you need to be a bit more precise if you want to say something is terrible that you then go on to explain is entirely possible.

You would understand it in a split second like the others in this thread if you stopped forum warrioring for a second and started playing what you comment about.

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Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops Likes received: 27,526	#80 - 2012-07-24 18:00:04 UTC \| Edited by: Tippia Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Yes they did. So in other words, it's not a problem — put the crystals in the Orca.

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