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CNR VS Golem
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Zechs Kushrenada
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-07-24 07:28:26 UTC
Howdy again,

Few days ago I asked about missiles, and if they were still any good. Glad I stuck with them, love the new animationCool. As I said then, been on and off for years, and now on again. Around 25 mil sp of which 9 mil in missiles now. My CNR looks like this:

[Raven Navy Issue, raven navy issue]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

EM Ward Field II (course these change depending on the mission)
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Ionic Field Accelerator I
Extra Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I (got tired of checking what missions had jamming rats, so removed the tp for perma ECCM)

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Cruise Missile (fil in what charges you like here)
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Cruise Missile
[empty high slot] (oops, forgot my tractor beam here)

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

It's going through missions with ease. I was wondering if it's worth it to train up for a Golem...... Mainly because I see a few problems there, but those problems are on paper... .wondering if some folk could give real experienced comments.

According to calculations I have to fit it with torps if I want to outperform my CNR (for some bizar reason fitting cruises it does less). Issue I have with torps is that they are 8 times as expensive ('Motsu') then cruises. Talking about the javilins then which I'm expecting to need. Even with those you only have 45 km's of range (second issue). I seem to remember some missions where the BS's like to hang around 50km's....... Even if they don't you could have em spawn at 80 km's+. This means that with my CNR I can start the bombardment right away, if I would have my golem I'd have to wait and drink coffee for them to get in range....Big smile.

Last issue is not an issue but advantage. You do have 3 high slots that allow for more looting power. Before my CNR I used my old school Raven, also with a tractor beam and a salvager. People always tell me how good salvaging is, so I must be doing something wrong. Cause I never earned that much from salvaging. The normal loot always 'outperformed' my salvage stuff. Switched to the CNR since it plows through missions faster. Meaning faster kills > faster bounty > faster missions.....

Recap: is it worth it to fly lvl 4's in a Golem compared to a CNR?

Best regards,

Zechs.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#2 - 2012-07-24 08:43:14 UTC
Zechs Kushrenada wrote:
[Raven Navy Issue, raven navy issue]
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Bad CNR is Bad!
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-07-24 08:49:34 UTC
It won't matter.
Your CNR fit is really bad and your Golem fit will be even worse it seems (45km range with Javs, really? - Protip, neither Golem nor CNR should EVER touch CCC rigs)
Fit 2 TPs, 4 BCU, 2 t2 Rigor and 1 t2 Flare rig. If you don't go into coma by the speed your new raven will kill stuff you might be ready for a Golem after all. If you want to stay in capstable happy-land, forget about the Golem and try a Rattlesnake - Neither CNR nor Golem were made for that.


Golem or CNR are different, as you noted Golem can only project dmg out to 65km (more with Implants), has sever micromanagement issues and is a ridiculously high-dmg machine if flown in the right missions. What you need to do is chose between CNR and Golem before each mission, pick the Golem for all melee missions without ecm, fly the Raven in the others.
Vain Eldritch
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2012-07-24 08:49:46 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Zechs Kushrenada wrote:
[Raven Navy Issue, raven navy issue]
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Bad CNR is Bad!


It appears to be working well for him...

Androgynous Caldari Cross-dresser
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-07-24 08:53:32 UTC
Vain Eldritch wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Zechs Kushrenada wrote:
[Raven Navy Issue, raven navy issue]
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Bad CNR is Bad!


It appears to be working well for him...


Working well for him doesn't mean that it's not a bad fit. L4s are very easy once you quit trying them in Rail Omens.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-07-24 10:00:00 UTC
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:
Working well for him doesn't mean that it's not a bad fit. L4s are very easy once you quit trying them in Rail Omens.


This. We can't seriously discuss going Golem if we don't fix the CNR first.

Quote:
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


No, just... no. Rigs should be Rigors, lows should have 4 BCUs (to capitalize on that last missile launcher, else you're better off with a navy scorpion; also, preferably make them Caldari Navy BCUs ), last slot should be a Sensor Booster or DCU or something similar.

Quote:
Extra Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I (got tired of checking what missions had jamming rats, so removed the tp for perma ECCM)


Very few Guristas missions have jamming rats, at 25M sp you should know them by heart. If not, just carry a stack of FoF cruise missiles (kinetic) in your cargo, problem solved.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-07-24 10:45:04 UTC
the guy above me is right. there is an optimal raven fit and this is not it.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Kakk0 Warui
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-07-24 11:27:29 UTC
Firstly, I'd like to say I fully support the max gank Faction BS ethos. This gets no argument from me. The faster you kill stuff, the sooner you can get on to the next mission. Simple.

However. Marauders in general are something of a different animal. When piloting this class of ship, your speed is not only dependant on how fast you can kill, but how fast you can draw in wreks for loot and salvage. Let's be honest, if you arent looting and salvaging in a marauder, you may as well be in a different boat.

Now, I had my Golem set with the popular and effective torp fit, but I found it to be complete overkill. Your salvager is the bottle neck for completion. If it takes 20 minutes to salvage a room, what difference does it make if you kill all the rats within 5 minutes? Or 15? Once I realised this, I scaled back the gank and boosted tank/cap with no real loss in efficiency.

My Golem now has what most would consider to be a fail fit (me included, compared to a properly fitted CNR). So much so, that I am embarrased to post it P But it is built around the salvager, rather than the weapon system.
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-07-24 12:24:06 UTC
Shocked
Thats far from optimal though.
Your main income are still lp and bounties, even in a marauder. Kill stuff with max gank, loot/salvage Large>Medium>Small wrecks, but don't linger in a mission longer than necessary just to salvage some more - The next mission will have just as much salvage.

If you are not salvaging and killing at the same time, turn the bloody mission in and get a new one, so you can salvage and kill some more - Do not reduce gank so you have more time to salvage Roll
Kakk0 Warui
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-07-24 12:44:16 UTC
Sorry, I'm not disagreeing with the "might is right" set up. It's tried and tested after all. I'm just saying beyond a certain point in a Marauder, the DPS doesn't make a whole lot of difference as far as salvege rate is concerned.

Maybe it's just me and my OCD nature of not wanting to leave anything behind. Ending up in the middle of a "Loot ball" while in a Marauder just makes me feel like I'm doing it wrong Smile
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-07-24 22:26:25 UTC
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:
Shocked
Thats far from optimal though.
Your main income are still lp and bounties, even in a marauder. Kill stuff with max gank, loot/salvage Large>Medium>Small wrecks, but don't linger in a mission longer than necessary just to salvage some more - The next mission will have just as much salvage.

If you are not salvaging and killing at the same time, turn the bloody mission in and get a new one, so you can salvage and kill some more - Do not reduce gank so you have more time to salvage Roll

this. if you are salvaging without shooting and/or burning to the next warp gate you're doing it wrong.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#12 - 2012-07-24 23:31:33 UTC
You also have the option of training up a rattlesnake.

Now with more dps!
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-07-25 03:23:42 UTC
Kakk0 Warui wrote:
Sorry, I'm not disagreeing with the "might is right" set up. It's tried and tested after all. I'm just saying beyond a certain point in a Marauder, the DPS doesn't make a whole lot of difference as far as salvege rate is concerned.

Maybe it's just me and my OCD nature of not wanting to leave anything behind. Ending up in the middle of a "Loot ball" while in a Marauder just makes me feel like I'm doing it wrong Smile


Depends who you're shooting. When shooting Serpentis or Angels, you most certainly will end up in a loot ball. You'll kill 'em faster than you can loot/salvage them.

You'll hate your life vs. Guristas b/c those rats want to stay at range and you need to get up close. You'll end up with something more akin to a loot planet.
Velarra
#14 - 2012-07-25 04:38:49 UTC
I sense an interest / desire in fits that are RL friendly. You may want to take a close look into Navy Issue Scorpion or Rattlesnake.
Zechs Kushrenada
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-07-25 13:25:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Zechs Kushrenada
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:
It won't matter.
Your CNR fit is really bad and your Golem fit will be even worse it seems (45km range with Javs, really? - Protip, neither Golem nor CNR should EVER touch CCC rigs)
Fit 2 TPs, 4 BCU, 2 t2 Rigor and 1 t2 Flare rig. If you don't go into coma by the speed your new raven will kill stuff you might be ready for a Golem after all. If you want to stay in capstable happy-land, forget about the Golem and try a Rattlesnake - Neither CNR nor Golem were made for that.


Golem or CNR are different, as you noted Golem can only project dmg out to 65km (more with Implants), has sever micromanagement issues and is a ridiculously high-dmg machine if flown in the right missions. What you need to do is chose between CNR and Golem before each mission, pick the Golem for all melee missions without ecm, fly the Raven in the others.


No need to be snide....... I'm not an eve guru, got this fit from some forum and ran with it. As I said, been on and off and play eve very very very casual. Way to many other hobbies besides this one. However, thanks for the suggestions, I'll try it and see how it goes. I do seem to remember a certain mission (name's evading me atm) where my tank was severely tested..... so wondering how it will go with one that depletes in prolly 2 mins...

And to the bottom reply; indeed real life friendlyBig smile, you sensed that right ^^. However that doesn't meen I don't like to push my limits ^^. Some of these comments are very usefull.

Regards,

Zechs

edit: might be doing something wrong again, but 2 t2 rigor and 1 t2 Flare don't fit....... Also what would you remove from the mid slots to make room for the tp's?
Zechs Kushrenada
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-07-25 21:20:51 UTC
Loving the higher dmg CNR!!!

However, still questions remaining. As I expected, the tp's are only usefull against the smaller ships, they don't seem to increase my dmg output on BS's. Since my rigs are now focused on helping to hit faster/smaller sig radius...... might it be wise to swap them for dmg/rate of fire rigs? Since the sig radius is taken care of by the tp's.... That way my dmg on frigs stays more or less the same, but on larger ships increases...... Or do they get a stacking penalty from the BCU's?

Let me know,

Zechs.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#17 - 2012-07-25 21:28:05 UTC
Rigs stack with damage mods. T2 rigs will come first in the stack and notably increase the relevant stat (volley or RoF) but T1 rigs will be negligible. For most purposes damage application rigs are superior.
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#18 - 2012-07-26 00:39:06 UTC
With the new estimated value feature, I've noticied that salvage and mods can (very roughly) equal bounties. There is a mild risk in that loot can be sub par, but items can be worth several million too. Make some tiered ISK value filters to help find what to sell.

IMHO, have multiple PvE ships to fit the mission.

IOW, use both.
Zechs Kushrenada
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-07-26 08:09:42 UTC
What I meant was do 2 tp's make 2 t2 Rigor and 1 t2 Flare rig obsolete?
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-07-26 08:55:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Wuxi Wuxilla
It's 2 t2 Rigor and 1 t1 Flare, forgot about the lower Calibration on faction ships.

The point of 2 TPs are getting used to juggling multiple TPs (the best Golem fits have 3 of them in addition to 2 Tractor Beams and 1 Salvager) and using Fury Cruises on as much stuff as possible - With 2 Rigor/2 TP you can use them on BC and above, which in addition to your drones means not much switching to t1 missiles and more applied dps.

/edit: 2 TPs never make Rigors/Flares obsolete. If anything, Rigors make TPs obsolete but a CNR should never undock without Rigors/Flares (unless you are a Torp CNR ofc). You can do with 1 TP and you could do without (but you don't need the tank either).
Another nice thing about 2 TPs is, that when fighting BS rats you can paint them with one to get full Fury damage and then paint the cruiser/frig your drones are working on for better applied drone damage.
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