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Black Ops

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POLITE ALLCAPSGUY
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2012-07-23 12:36:27 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
a statistic query we ran at the beginning of this year shown there are more Titan than Block Ops pilot on TQ


PLEASE EXCUSE ME ASKING, BUT DOES THIS MEAN THERE ARE MORE PLAYERS SITTING IN A TITAN AT ANY GIVEN TIME, MORE PLAYERS THAT LEARNED THE TITAN SKILL THAN THOSE THAT INJECTED BLACK OPS, OR REALLY MORE TITANS IN SPACE THEN THERE ARE BLACK OPS IN HANGARS SOMEWHERE?
TITAN PILOTS ARE DEDICATED ALTS, WHILE BLACK OPS PILOTS MIGHT JUST HAVE IT STASHED AWAY SOMEWHERE.

I HUMBLY AWAIT YOUR CLARIFICATIONS IN THIS MATTER.
Lord Helghast
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2012-07-23 12:38:50 UTC
ovenproofjet wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

So, when would this be coming out? Unfortunately, not for a while. As explained in the various blogs before, our current priority is to fix tech 1 ships as a whole before moving to more advanced hulls. That is because we need a solid frame of reference to rely on and compare hulls to before we can move to more delicate and complex ships, like Black Ops or tech 3 hulls.


Also don't forget this is just our long term plan for now, and things may change in the future. In all cases they are not forgotten, but will take time to get to.

Hope that helps!


Thank you for this response, as a member of one of the groups you mention that uses Black Ops all the time this is very encouraging.

Once T1 is sorted (and hopefully the drake nerfed!) could you please prioritise Black Ops in the T2 rebalancing. There isn't really any T2 class that is as broken as the Black Ops!!!


Have to agree here, since blackops are so far out on the replacements behind all T1's and then even when it ets to T2's they are battleships so will be hit nearly last.. .

Why not just do some basic number shuffling atleast on fuel bays and maybe a small bonus per level to reduce fuel usage more... its kinda nuts at this point atleast show them some short term love considering how negected they are, i mean no one expects a fix right now but a bandaid for the time being till you get around to T2 BS's would be cool.
Lord Helghast
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2012-07-23 12:40:06 UTC
POLITE ALLCAPSGUY wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
a statistic query we ran at the beginning of this year shown there are more Titan than Block Ops pilot on TQ


PLEASE EXCUSE ME ASKING, BUT DOES THIS MEAN THERE ARE MORE PLAYERS SITTING IN A TITAN AT ANY GIVEN TIME, MORE PLAYERS THAT LEARNED THE TITAN SKILL THAN THOSE THAT INJECTED BLACK OPS, OR REALLY MORE TITANS IN SPACE THEN THERE ARE BLACK OPS IN HANGARS SOMEWHERE?
TITAN PILOTS ARE DEDICATED ALTS, WHILE BLACK OPS PILOTS MIGHT JUST HAVE IT STASHED AWAY SOMEWHERE.

I HUMBLY AWAIT YOUR CLARIFICATIONS IN THIS MATTER.


Does it matter? There are more ACTIVELY USED titans than blackops simple fact. Why? Short Range, High Fuel Cost, Limited scale, Limited Usefulness, High Skill train :(
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2012-07-23 12:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
POLITE ALLCAPSGUY wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
a statistic query we ran at the beginning of this year shown there are more Titan than Block Ops pilot on TQ


PLEASE EXCUSE ME ASKING, BUT DOES THIS MEAN THERE ARE MORE PLAYERS SITTING IN A TITAN AT ANY GIVEN TIME, MORE PLAYERS THAT LEARNED THE TITAN SKILL THAN THOSE THAT INJECTED BLACK OPS, OR REALLY MORE TITANS IN SPACE THEN THERE ARE BLACK OPS IN HANGARS SOMEWHERE?
TITAN PILOTS ARE DEDICATED ALTS, WHILE BLACK OPS PILOTS MIGHT JUST HAVE IT STASHED AWAY SOMEWHERE.

I HUMBLY AWAIT YOUR CLARIFICATIONS IN THIS MATTER.

People are far more likely to read your posts if they don't feel like they're being shouted at.

As a rule all-uppercase is also significantly harder to read than mixed-case text.

In any case, I'm guessing that what he really means is that there are more titan hulls than black ops hulls in the game.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#85 - 2012-07-23 15:00:49 UTC

Yitterbium...

So you're saying we'll see a T2 Abaddon/Maelstrom/Hyperion hull...

Big smile

Where I am.
Clolo
Perkone
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-07-23 15:04:01 UTC
Lord Helghast wrote:
ovenproofjet wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

So, when would this be coming out? Unfortunately, not for a while. As explained in the various blogs before, our current priority is to fix tech 1 ships as a whole before moving to more advanced hulls. That is because we need a solid frame of reference to rely on and compare hulls to before we can move to more delicate and complex ships, like Black Ops or tech 3 hulls.


Also don't forget this is just our long term plan for now, and things may change in the future. In all cases they are not forgotten, but will take time to get to.

Hope that helps!


Thank you for this response, as a member of one of the groups you mention that uses Black Ops all the time this is very encouraging.

Once T1 is sorted (and hopefully the drake nerfed!) could you please prioritise Black Ops in the T2 rebalancing. There isn't really any T2 class that is as broken as the Black Ops!!!


Have to agree here, since blackops are so far out on the replacements behind all T1's and then even when it ets to T2's they are battleships so will be hit nearly last.. .

Why not just do some basic number shuffling atleast on fuel bays and maybe a small bonus per level to reduce fuel usage more... its kinda nuts at this point atleast show them some short term love considering how negected they are, i mean no one expects a fix right now but a bandaid for the time being till you get around to T2 BS's would be cool.


This. Can we please get some basic quality of life updates to BOs? At the current rate of CCPs re balancing, BOs probably wont even be touched for another 2 years.

CCP would be able to make BOs much more enjoyable with tweaking a few numbers, which I can't imagine taking to long. Give BO T2 resists, increase the fuel bay slightly or decrease fuel needed and give a .5-1.0 ly boost to jump/bridge range. Those changes would go a long way from making us BO pilots feel like the bastard children of eve.
Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
#87 - 2012-07-23 15:04:22 UTC
CCP Ytterbium, I know this is somehow off-topic, but still, will the Micro Jump Drive appear in august?
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#88 - 2012-07-23 15:44:06 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So, when would this be coming out? Unfortunately, not for a while.

How many developers are actively working with ship balancing at the moment?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2012-07-23 15:47:27 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:

Yitterbium...

So you're saying we'll see a T2 Abaddon/Maelstrom/Hyperion hull...

Big smile

Time to fap!

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Greg Valanti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2012-07-23 15:48:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Greg Valanti
POLITE ALLCAPSGUY wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
a statistic query we ran at the beginning of this year shown there are more Titan than Block Ops pilot on TQ


PLEASE EXCUSE ME ASKING, BUT DOES THIS MEAN THERE ARE MORE PLAYERS SITTING IN A TITAN AT ANY GIVEN TIME, MORE PLAYERS THAT LEARNED THE TITAN SKILL THAN THOSE THAT INJECTED BLACK OPS, OR REALLY MORE TITANS IN SPACE THEN THERE ARE BLACK OPS IN HANGARS SOMEWHERE?
TITAN PILOTS ARE DEDICATED ALTS, WHILE BLACK OPS PILOTS MIGHT JUST HAVE IT STASHED AWAY SOMEWHERE.

I HUMBLY AWAIT YOUR CLARIFICATIONS IN THIS MATTER.


Take your novelty account back to reddit.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2012-07-23 15:50:08 UTC
Thanks a ton for the dev reply. I just hope down the line that when you do get to them, you remember that there is already a dedicated ewar platform in the black ops gang. Really zero need for another one.
Guillame Herschel
Buffalo Soldiers
#92 - 2012-07-23 16:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Guillame Herschel
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Thanks a ton for the dev reply. I just hope down the line that when you do get to them, you remember that there is already a dedicated ewar platform in the black ops gang. Really zero need for another one.


Yep. More DPS and EHP with Covert Cloak. No jump drive or bridge.

Or, instead of more DPS and EHP, give them sniping bonuses and adequate supporting attributes for that role.
Emperor Ryan
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#93 - 2012-07-23 16:26:22 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Back from vacation and thought this thread could use some dev love.


Yes, Black Ops definitely need some attention; the main problem with them is the lack of role focus. Some (like the Redeemer or Window) are trying to achieve a purpose directly on the battlefield, similar with recons by having an electronic warfare or damage related bonus. On top of that, they also are trying to fulfill a fleet support role with their cyno capability, which is quite in contradiction with the previous one.

And they aren't great at both: their raw HP is quite lower than tech 1 battleships (and tech 2 resistance boosts aren't stellar either), have less turret and missile hardpoints than tech 1 counterparts and remain more expensive to run, which doesn't make them appealing for direct engagement purposes. They also lack autonomy in their support role, as they are quite short ranged, fuel hungry and this issue is amplified by their small fuel bay forcing them to rely on other ships to resupply frequently during an operation.

The current plan is to take one these two listed roles out of the Black Ops ship class and reshape them to do the remaining one well. If they are disruption ships using EW, they should have more presence on the battlefield for their pricetag. If they are support tools for surprise attacks and small gang movement into enemy space, then they should have the proper bay, range and tools to do so accordingly.

The role dropped out of the Black Ops would then be moved to a new class in the tech 2 battleship range to replace for the loss.

We acknowledge some entities out there are using Black Ops with great effect when backed up with the proper organization, structure and out-of-the-box thinking to make use of them in unorthodox situations. While we don't want to take that away, Black Ops should be more effective without such heavy commitment into them (a statistic query we ran at the beginning of this year shown there are more Titan than Block Ops pilot on TQ). They should be great force multiplier tools for small groups to take on larger ones by surprise, and should be able to do so relatively well without relying on a dedicated support structure.

So, when would this be coming out? Unfortunately, not for a while. As explained in the various blogs before, our current priority is to fix tech 1 ships as a whole before moving to more advanced hulls. That is because we need a solid frame of reference to rely on and compare hulls to before we can move to more delicate and complex ships, like Black Ops or tech 3 hulls.


Also don't forget this is just our long term plan for now, and things may change in the future. In all cases they are not forgotten, but will take time to get to.

Hope that helps!


CCP Yitterbium,

Mildly Intoxicated which is likely one of the most active Clandestine Warfare alliances preforming black ops drops on a daily basis in the as you described as the 'out-of-the-box thinking' way to make them effective would appreciate the opportunity to help influence the future of these ships. The challenge of making them worth there price-tag is a difficult and time consuming task however they are in there current form (besides the Widow and the Sin) which are in need of some adjustments they offer some of the most intensive PvP this game has to offer.

However it should be clear that Black Ops BS, and the role they preform is an extremely specialist role in this game, and that factor should not be removed from the ship, though it's defiantly agreeable that change is needed. Mildly would be honored to speak with CCP in regards to the current use/and possible future use of these ships because we love these ships!
Ohh Yeah
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#94 - 2012-07-23 16:33:39 UTC
POLITE ALLCAPSGUY wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
a statistic query we ran at the beginning of this year shown there are more Titan than Block Ops pilot on TQ


PLEASE EXCUSE ME ASKING, BUT DOES THIS MEAN THERE ARE MORE PLAYERS SITTING IN A TITAN AT ANY GIVEN TIME, MORE PLAYERS THAT LEARNED THE TITAN SKILL THAN THOSE THAT INJECTED BLACK OPS, OR REALLY MORE TITANS IN SPACE THEN THERE ARE BLACK OPS IN HANGARS SOMEWHERE?
TITAN PILOTS ARE DEDICATED ALTS, WHILE BLACK OPS PILOTS MIGHT JUST HAVE IT STASHED AWAY SOMEWHERE.

I HUMBLY AWAIT YOUR CLARIFICATIONS IN THIS MATTER.


Did you really copy a Reddit novelty account to use on the EVE-O forums? I know PACG plays EVE, and even if that's really you, it's just stupid.
Ataraxa
Trolltech Ltd.
#95 - 2012-07-23 16:38:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ataraxa
A BO skill bonus to fuel usage and/or fuel bay size wouldn't be that hard to implement and go a long way for their usefulness.

(Ryan makes me leave that Sin at home)
Shepard Book
Underground Stargate
#96 - 2012-07-23 16:42:53 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Back from vacation and thought this thread could use some dev love.


Yes, Black Ops definitely need some attention; the main problem with them is the lack of role focus. Some (like the Redeemer or Window) are trying to achieve a purpose directly on the battlefield, similar with recons by having an electronic warfare or damage related bonus. On top of that, they also are trying to fulfill a fleet support role with their cyno capability, which is quite in contradiction with the previous one.

And they aren't great at both: their raw HP is quite lower than tech 1 battleships (and tech 2 resistance boosts aren't stellar either), have less turret and missile hardpoints than tech 1 counterparts and remain more expensive to run, which doesn't make them appealing for direct engagement purposes. They also lack autonomy in their support role, as they are quite short ranged, fuel hungry and this issue is amplified by their small fuel bay forcing them to rely on other ships to resupply frequently during an operation.

The current plan is to take one these two listed roles out of the Black Ops ship class and reshape them to do the remaining one well. If they are disruption ships using EW, they should have more presence on the battlefield for their pricetag. If they are support tools for surprise attacks and small gang movement into enemy space, then they should have the proper bay, range and tools to do so accordingly.

The role dropped out of the Black Ops would then be moved to a new class in the tech 2 battleship range to replace for the loss.

We acknowledge some entities out there are using Black Ops with great effect when backed up with the proper organization, structure and out-of-the-box thinking to make use of them in unorthodox situations. While we don't want to take that away, Black Ops should be more effective without such heavy commitment into them (a statistic query we ran at the beginning of this year shown there are more Titan than Block Ops pilot on TQ). They should be great force multiplier tools for small groups to take on larger ones by surprise, and should be able to do so relatively well without relying on a dedicated support structure.

So, when would this be coming out? Unfortunately, not for a while. As explained in the various blogs before, our current priority is to fix tech 1 ships as a whole before moving to more advanced hulls. That is because we need a solid frame of reference to rely on and compare hulls to before we can move to more delicate and complex ships, like Black Ops or tech 3 hulls.


Also don't forget this is just our long term plan for now, and things may change in the future. In all cases they are not forgotten, but will take time to get to.

Hope that helps!


Please do not just make these a moving jump bridge. I even liked the idea as an anti cap ship more than that.
Kieron VonDeux
#97 - 2012-07-23 16:44:39 UTC
I personally like a 25% bonus to jump range per level Black Ops skill bonus.
That would give us a 7 ly jump range at Black Ops V.
Hemmo Paskiainen
#98 - 2012-07-23 19:30:03 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:



Also don't forget this is just our long term plan for now, and things may change in the future. In all cases they are not forgotten, but will take time to get to.

Hope that helps!


Yes, thank you very much for you reply. Its really much appriciated by many ppl i know ingame.

Lord Helghast wrote:


Why not just do some basic number shuffling atleast on fuel bays and maybe a small bonus per level to reduce fuel usage more... its kinda nuts at this point atleast show them some short term love considering how negected they are, i mean no one expects a fix right now but a bandaid for the time being till you get around to T2 BS's would be cool.


I have to agree with this dude.

Bloodpetal wrote:

Yitterbium...

So you're saying we'll see a T2 Abaddon/Maelstrom/Hyperion hull...

Big smile


CCP Ytterbium, did you ment to say that BO will be splitted out to 2 types or just 1 Bo & 1 T2 non BO bs ship? 2 different classes of Black Ops is one of the solutions mentioned in the assembly hall post i linked in my first post. Almost all T2 ships have 2 different shiptypes (see hac's, commandships ect) This should cover most problems & gives an oppertunity to make something really awesome of them.

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#99 - 2012-07-23 19:37:41 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
I get it wrong that you're a useless troll/mindless fanboi/girl, O great NPC-corp generic forum-alt?

No, I think not.

Next!


do you even know what a "fanboi" is?
yeah and your 3 corp alt is not generic! ohh boy...
you are not too clever are you
Lol



Unless your main character is forum-banned:

Post with your ultra-ub3r-1337 main, then, and show proof, else shut the **** up.

And that useless hater below your post that I'm quoting here, it can shut the **** up, too.

Back on topic, next!

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#100 - 2012-07-23 19:43:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Back from vacation and thought this thread could use some dev love.


Yes, Black Ops definitely need some attention; the main problem with them is the lack of role focus. Some (like the Redeemer or Window) are trying to achieve a purpose directly on the battlefield, similar with recons by having an electronic warfare or damage related bonus. On top of that, they also are trying to fulfill a fleet support role with their cyno capability, which is quite in contradiction with the previous one.

And they aren't great at both: their raw HP is quite lower than tech 1 battleships (and tech 2 resistance boosts aren't stellar either), have less turret and missile hardpoints than tech 1 counterparts and remain more expensive to run, which doesn't make them appealing for direct engagement purposes. They also lack autonomy in their support role, as they are quite short ranged, fuel hungry and this issue is amplified by their small fuel bay forcing them to rely on other ships to resupply frequently during an operation.

The current plan is to take one these two listed roles out of the Black Ops ship class and reshape them to do the remaining one well. If they are disruption ships using EW, they should have more presence on the battlefield for their pricetag. If they are support tools for surprise attacks and small gang movement into enemy space, then they should have the proper bay, range and tools to do so accordingly.

The role dropped out of the Black Ops would then be moved to a new class in the tech 2 battleship range to replace for the loss.

We acknowledge some entities out there are using Black Ops with great effect when backed up with the proper organization, structure and out-of-the-box thinking to make use of them in unorthodox situations. While we don't want to take that away, Black Ops should be more effective without such heavy commitment into them (a statistic query we ran at the beginning of this year shown there are more Titan than Block Ops pilot on TQ). They should be great force multiplier tools for small groups to take on larger ones by surprise, and should be able to do so relatively well without relying on a dedicated support structure.

So, when would this be coming out? Unfortunately, not for a while. As explained in the various blogs before, our current priority is to fix tech 1 ships as a whole before moving to more advanced hulls. That is because we need a solid frame of reference to rely on and compare hulls to before we can move to more delicate and complex ships, like Black Ops or tech 3 hulls.


Also don't forget this is just our long term plan for now, and things may change in the future. In all cases they are not forgotten, but will take time to get to.

Hope that helps!


Yes, thank you!

(You're rapidly becoming my new favourite dev, by the wayBlink)

Please, mate, just try your best to ensure that this doesn't get forgotten, alright?

More Titans than BLOPs--with the former costing ca. 100 times more, and needing, literally years of skill-training and experience to use effectively--that is just so wrong on so many levels, it's not even funny...

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.