These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Problem with super nerf - super caps are committed for 23 hours and die if the subcap fleet welps
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#101 - 2011-10-11 02:13:07 UTC
Digital Messiah
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2011-10-11 02:19:17 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Reeno Coleman wrote:
Shocking. You can lose your stuff.

Welcome to EVE.




Something clever
Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#103 - 2011-10-11 02:31:27 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
if they can make is so that supers stay on the grid after logoff if agressed, why cant they do that for all ships



There isn't much need, the current mechanics really only impact ships like Jump Freighters and Supercaps, where the HP buffer is enough for the logoffski to endure 15 mins of whatever DPS they are likely to encounter.

I mean, they could reset the timer every time something shoots your battleship, but how many situations will you find where a battleship can survive 15 mins of damage and not pop? I suppose if you logoff in an otherwise empty system so you can survive the noobship that's tackling you....





After a player logs out, there is a check for player aggression every 15 minutes. If you have been aggressed, the timer extends for 15 minutes; if you have not been aggressed, you disappear as before. Note: this is only for player aggression and will not change what happens when you log off during fights against NPCs.

I see nothing that says only supers. This appears to me like it will affect everyone.


I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#104 - 2011-10-11 02:35:02 UTC
All this thread has taught me is that Nulli pilots don't understand supercaps...or have good reading abilities.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#105 - 2011-10-11 02:50:41 UTC
Although the changes will change some tactics.
I really don't see how the changes are going to make a difference.
Most alliances don't have Issues fielding sub cap fleets.
So all these are going to do is create a larger spread between the large and small alliances.
Maybe.

I am more concerned about the fighter nerf and in turn the normal carrier nerf.

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#106 - 2011-10-11 02:50:56 UTC
Although the changes will change some tactics.
I really don't see how the changes are going to make a difference.
Most alliances don't have Issues fielding sub cap fleets.
So all these are going to do is create a larger spread between the large and small alliances.
Maybe.

I am more concerned about the fighter nerf and in turn the normal carrier nerf.

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#107 - 2011-10-11 02:59:53 UTC
Simetraz wrote:

I am more concerned about the fighter nerf and in turn the normal carrier nerf.



This is the one change I have a little hard time with, and not just because I recently acquired a carrier and the ability to fly it. I guess its just that Fighters now occupy a very weird place - they are physically smaller than frigates. They have Cruiser HP, but can apparently only shoot battleships.

So now they are barely larger than drones (still), tank like cruisers, but put out damage that can only hit battleships.

Just exactly what ARE fighters supposed to be? Just tanky heavy drones now, basically?

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Nurdra
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2011-10-11 03:04:49 UTC
What is the advantage of a sc over a dread after this patch? I can only find disadvantages for a much higher price...

1. A dread can dock, a sc can't.

2. A dread makes nealy 50% of the dps but costs only about 10-20% of a sc. (dread dps will be improved)

3. Guns of a dread can't be killed, fighter/bombers can be killed and no room in dronebay for replacement.

4. A dread can shoot a pos, a sc can't.


can anyone show me 1 or 2 reason? (serious question)

And don't tell me just the ehp, because the ehp per isk is not higher either after the 20% nurf...
Kitty McKitty
In Praise Of Shadows
#109 - 2011-10-11 03:06:39 UTC
If you cant support a fleet of Supers then you deserve to lose them. I don't see what the issue is here.

♥ Haviing your portrait painted here helps INTAKI Disabled Children ♥
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#110 - 2011-10-11 03:10:39 UTC
Griznatch wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
if they can make is so that supers stay on the grid after logoff if agressed, why cant they do that for all ships



There isn't much need, the current mechanics really only impact ships like Jump Freighters and Supercaps, where the HP buffer is enough for the logoffski to endure 15 mins of whatever DPS they are likely to encounter.

I mean, they could reset the timer every time something shoots your battleship, but how many situations will you find where a battleship can survive 15 mins of damage and not pop? I suppose if you logoff in an otherwise empty system so you can survive the noobship that's tackling you....





After a player logs out, there is a check for player aggression every 15 minutes. If you have been aggressed, the timer extends for 15 minutes; if you have not been aggressed, you disappear as before. Note: this is only for player aggression and will not change what happens when you log off during fights against NPCs.

I see nothing that says only supers. This appears to me like it will affect everyone.



no more ppl qqing about logoffski
win imo

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#111 - 2011-10-11 03:19:06 UTC
Nurdra wrote:
What is the advantage of a sc over a dread after this patch? I can only find disadvantages for a much higher price...

1. A dread can dock, a sc can't.

2. A dread makes nealy 50% of the dps but costs only about 10-20% of a sc. (dread dps will be improved)

3. Guns of a dread can't be killed, fighter/bombers can be killed and no room in dronebay for replacement.

4. A dread can shoot a pos, a sc can't.


can anyone show me 1 or 2 reason? (serious question)

And don't tell me just the ehp, because the ehp per isk is not higher either after the 20% nurf...


I think its a fallacy to begin with to even compare the two directly. Supercarriers are not be-all end-all DPS ships. They are larger cousins of carriers, which are a LOGISTICS ship.

Dread guns are extremely limited. They cannot hit moving targets well. Fighters can.

Supercarriers CARRY OTHER SHIPS. You can stash a fleet in them. Your buddies can jumpclone to you, and undock in whatever ship you have in your belly.

Supercarriers can use remote reps. Supercarriers can use Remote ECM bursts, a powerful area of attack weapon.

Supercarriers have the proper type DPS to kill a ship class smaller than themselves (Battleships). Dreads can only attack ships of the same size or larger.

Need more reasons?

Yes, these changes make it difficult to open the EvE ship book and point to the one that is "teh best". But thats the way it should be.

People asking these questions, along with the ones raging over how the changes "destroyed supers", are totally not ready to be flying capital ships to begin with.

I'd start with frigates, than cruisers, than BC's, and learning which ships are used for logi, which are used for DPS, which are used for support, and being able to tell the difference....these are pretty critical skills that appear to be lacking amongst 90% of the supercap pilots of EvE, based on the reactions to the changes.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Elexis Venator
Unintended Consequences
#112 - 2011-10-11 03:19:24 UTC
While the general tone of the utterly awesome thread is focusing on logoffski, do we know if the new logoffski rules will apply to people who jump through gates and immediately log off?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#113 - 2011-10-11 03:20:26 UTC
Elexis Venator wrote:
While the general tone of the utterly awesome thread is focusing on logoffski, do we know if the new logoffski rules will apply to people who jump through gates and immediately log off?


That depends whether or not someone is waiting on the other side with an ECM burst, I suppose.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#114 - 2011-10-11 03:30:39 UTC
Nurdra wrote:
What is the advantage of a sc over a dread after this patch? I can only find disadvantages for a much higher price...

1. A dread can dock, a sc can't.

2. A dread makes nealy 50% of the dps but costs only about 10-20% of a sc. (dread dps will be improved)

3. Guns of a dread can't be killed, fighter/bombers can be killed and no room in dronebay for replacement.

4. A dread can shoot a pos, a sc can't.


can anyone show me 1 or 2 reason? (serious question)

And don't tell me just the ehp, because the ehp per isk is not higher either after the 20% nurf...


Well there's the tiny matter of still having 10 or more times the EHP, but if having an order of magnitude better tank isn't enough for you, there are others like:

Being mobile while applying DPS,

Still applying 10-50% more DPS than dreads (eg: Nyx vs Revalation),

Able to apply that DPS anywhere on grid

Not having to seige for any minutes at all in order to apply full DPS (meaning you can jump to an exit cyno at any time and you

Can be remote repped while still being EW-immune, both of which are massive defensive advantages btw),

Not having to use your precious jump-out/rep capacitor to apply DPS,

Not having to use consumable stront/ammo to apply DPS,

Being able to fit a remote ECM burst, and being able to fit cloaks, heavy neuts and smartbombs, while not compromising your DPS

And finally, in the case of the Nyx and the Hel, looking marvellous.

So yeah to me it still looks like in a fleet fight, a supercarrier is way more powerful than a dread.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#115 - 2011-10-11 03:34:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


Well there's the tiny matter of still having 10 or more times the EHP, but if having an order of magnitude better tank isn't enough for you, there are others like:

Being mobile while applying DPS,

Still applying 10-50% more DPS than dreads (eg: Nyx vs Revalation),

Able to apply that DPS anywhere on grid

Not having to seige for any minutes at all in order to apply full DPS (meaning you can jump to an exit cyno at any time and you

Can be remote repped while still being EW-immune, both of which are massive defensive advantages btw),

Not having to use your precious jump-out/rep capacitor to apply DPS,

Not having to use consumable stront/ammo to apply DPS,

Being able to fit a remote ECM burst, and being able to fit cloaks, heavy neuts and smartbombs, while not compromising your DPS

And finally, in the case of the Nyx and the Hel, looking marvellous.

So yeah to me it still looks like in a fleet fight, a supercarrier is way more powerful than a dread.


I like that we both responded with two seperate lists of reasons that Super's are still better. You win though, you had even more than me!

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#116 - 2011-10-11 03:48:05 UTC
Yeah i know he only asked for 1 or 2 advantages and he got 8 major ones (I forgot to mention that supercarriers can also refit on the battlefield as well as enabling friendly ships to refit, and they carry 2M m^3 of fitted ships for your friends to reship into, so even if your subcap fleet runs into some problems, they can keep fighting, so yeah actually 10 major advantages) because once you get thinking about it, supercaps are still so incredibly powerful and useful that it's hard to stop noticing them once you start.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
FadeIN Fr0St
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2011-10-11 04:32:33 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Chronix Beebelbrox wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
An aircraft carrier can no longer be as tough as an entire navy fleet?
Sort of a bad example, modern supercarriers can win wars with most countries on earth by themselves.
Um no. An aircraft carrier will not even leave port without the compliment of it's defensive support fleet of cruisers, destroyers and subs. Not to mention all the space based and land based assets tasked to a carrier battle GROUP. A "modern american supercarrier", while truly able to wield more destructive military power anywhere in the world than all but the strongest military forces in the world, it does nothing "by themselves."
…for a nice illustration, look up the Millennium Challenge 2002 wargame and what happened there. The tl;dr of it is this: welpfleets works in real life too… they really work.


I just read about it. And I LOL'ed hard.Lol



Good read, would like to watch that Discovery Channel show on it.

"All hail Wang ... the little fella in Command. When 'trouble' starts to spread, I'm sure he will rise to the occasion."

Azahni Vah'nos (Best reply ever)
Sin Meng
Catskull Horizons
Grimskulls
#118 - 2011-10-11 04:35:38 UTC
Winter is Coming

Elements of the past and the future combining to make something not quite as good as either.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#119 - 2011-10-11 04:36:50 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Yeah i know he only asked for 1 or 2 advantages and he got 8 major ones (I forgot to mention that supercarriers can also refit on the battlefield as well as enabling friendly ships to refit, and they carry 2M m^3 of fitted ships for your friends to reship into, so even if your subcap fleet runs into some problems, they can keep fighting, so yeah actually 10 major advantages) because once you get thinking about it, supercaps are still so incredibly powerful and useful that it's hard to stop noticing them once you start.




You are correct sir.

But...

most of the raging about the nerf is apparently by people who know only to use the super as a DPS winmobile and probably don't know about all of these other capabilities you listed.

If you and your friends were to solve your problems - all of them - by throwing tons of monkey wrenches at clogged pipes, you would never learn beforehand that you can actually fix the plumbing with them.

So it appears that the blobaholics are like "WTF?". They still have very powerful and useful ships.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
#120 - 2011-10-11 04:54:04 UTC
Using logoffs to only "commit" for 15 minutes was a bit of a exploit TBH.

Better nano those supers so you can warp around during the 15 minute cooldown.