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Cloaking - Make it respect the laws of thermodynamics?
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Sekket
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-07-22 06:14:19 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
thanks for the fake physics... "AFK" are not an issue.. at all. because they are not able to attack or even doing anything, they can't hurt you.... they are afk... theoretically anyway .. you have no way to know that they aren't really just sitting there at their keyboeard. No force decloaks that arent already in the game.. this is a transparent attempt to win a nerf on all cloaking. This would break it completely for any real use.

Remove the cloaked from local and never worry aobut the "AFK" again.


Really, the same tired arguments are repeated every time this subject comes up.

Here's the deal:

The effort required to spread paranoia of hotdrops with an AFK cloaker in a system: negligible.

The effort required to provide protection from a potential hotdrop: substantial.

It is far too asymmetric and It make s a mockery out of the idea of sovereignty.

I also have to wonder how many people who come in defense of people leaving an alt cloaked in a system 23/7 will also ridicule a miner who alt-tabs out to watch youtube or goes to do household chores while his strip miners are cycling for his lack of vigilance.

If the expected level of player interaction is to be at the keyboard and vigilant at all times while not docked then cloakers have been getting a free ride for far too long.

  • CQ isn't a refuge, it's a cage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iu4iekX3WE
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-07-22 06:21:39 UTC
Concerning the OP. While I agree that there should be a 'real physics' explaination for what is going on with the cloaking devices. You have to take into consideration all the ways different factions and how their sensors identify ships and objects in space. Magnometric, Gravimetric, Radar and Ladar.

Beneath is purely subjective and has nothing to do with actual physics...

Magnometric - Literal measurement of the objects mangetic fields interacting with the environment and processing that against visual data inputed from camera's on the ship.

Gravimetric - Analysis of the gravatron particles imprint the area of space the ship takes up.

Radar - Do I really need to explain this...

Ladar - See above

A cloaking device would have to defeat all these sensor readings at the same time. Current understanding of physics cannot even explain how gravimetric detection systems would even work unless that object was in close proximity. Even then proximity to larger objects would confuse sensors as far as I could tell.

Anyway! this is Science Fiction and I'm operating under the assumption that the people of new eden understand subatomic physic much better than the foremost expert on the subject on Earth.

With that in mind I will say this only once.

You cannot understand how or why cloaking devices work, how then can you make the assumption that they do not follow the natural laws of physic/thermaldynamics?

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Mag's
Azn Empire
#23 - 2012-07-22 08:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Sekket wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
thanks for the fake physics... "AFK" are not an issue.. at all. because they are not able to attack or even doing anything, they can't hurt you.... they are afk... theoretically anyway .. you have no way to know that they aren't really just sitting there at their keyboeard. No force decloaks that arent already in the game.. this is a transparent attempt to win a nerf on all cloaking. This would break it completely for any real use.

Remove the cloaked from local and never worry aobut the "AFK" again.


Really, the same tired arguments are repeated every time this subject comes up.

Here's the deal:

The effort required to spread paranoia of hotdrops with an AFK cloaker in a system: negligible.

The effort required to provide protection from a potential hotdrop: substantial.

It is far too asymmetric and It make s a mockery out of the idea of sovereignty.

I also have to wonder how many people who come in defense of people leaving an alt cloaked in a system 23/7 will also ridicule a miner who alt-tabs out to watch youtube or goes to do household chores while his strip miners are cycling for his lack of vigilance.

If the expected level of player interaction is to be at the keyboard and vigilant at all times while not docked then cloakers have been getting a free ride for far too long.

Guess what, you've brought in the same old tired argument of 'hotdrops'. If you want to talk about hotdrops, then make a thread regarding them.

One could argue they put more effort into going AFK, then you do into looking at local and seeing him there. (pedantic)

The effort required to protect your sov, is down to you. But if you want to thrive and survive in null, most of that protection should already be in place. So the adjustment for one lone AFK pilot, should also be negligible.
If you don't have any protection already in place, then there's only one here making a mockery of sovereignty and that's you.

But answer me this. Whilst they are AFK, what game mechanic are they using to interact with you and attempt to create fear, through psychological warfare?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-07-22 08:45:22 UTC
Captain Presario wrote:
Xorv wrote:
Remove Local Chat Intel!


And in doing so

= The death of eve online

This is not a fantasy MMO were it doesn't matter whose around you.

If you remove local

Null Sec becomes useless, fleets cant form up against other fleets because NO INTEL ON NUMBERS so systems fall and drop everyday

You people are stupid


Maybe it's just me, but I'm having a hard time deciding if Cappy here is trolling or just plain stupid.

On the one hand there is negligible risk in parking a stealthed alt off of a jump gate for potentially significant information gains. Likewise if you're already in the system the directional scanner is a very useful, and valid, tool for telling you if and what, though not necessarily who, just showed up. Neither is removed from the game by removing local chat's list of people in a star system.

On the other hand it makes the work of aggressors more difficult. Unless they get lucky and slip in a stealthed observer either before one of the aforementioned scout alts arrives or when the "pilot" isn't paying attention they're going to be noticed. Likewise unless the pilots in local are morons and leave their ships named "so and so's whatever" the aggressors aren't going to be able to load up a directional scan page, add names to their contact list, and say, "Okay, this guy's online and probably in this system so we've potentially got a minimum of X people here." Furthermore unless they're quick on the draw with narrowing down sections of the scan, or potential targets are simply out of the scan range from a jump gate, people in local will have a chance of either docking up (which will effectively provide free intel to aggressors) at a station or hiding at a POS before someone can notice the change in position and get a more accurate count of the local population.

On the gripping hand Cappy is trying to suggest that "fantasy MMOs" are somehow some sort of mystical wonderland for carebears as if PvP servers, where PvP could happen anytime and any place after the first or second leveling zone, didn't exist and games like Ultima Online and Dark Age of Camelot, where AFAIK "carebear"/PvE servers were never considered or at least created, never existed. This in turn has him suggesting that by removing local chat EVE Online would somehow be turned into one of World of Warcraft's PvE servers, or at least the spaceships in space equivalent thereof.

Frankly after the "fantasy MMO" comment I have to lean to trolling. The rest is stupid, but when someone says "fantasy MMO" my experience is that most people in EVE will think of WoW which will in turn set a burr under the skins of many of those people.
VaL Iscariot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-07-22 09:26:45 UTC
oh look, its this thread again..
Horus V
The Destined
#26 - 2012-07-23 04:38:15 UTC
+1

V
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-07-23 04:59:52 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Shereza wrote:
On the one hand there is negligible risk in parking a stealthed alt off of a jump gate for potentially significant information gains. Likewise if you're already in the system the directional scanner is a very useful, and valid, tool for telling you if and what, though not necessarily who, just showed up. Neither is removed from the game by removing local chat's list of people in a star system.

On the other hand it makes the work of aggressors more difficult. Unless they get lucky and slip in a stealthed observer either before one of the aforementioned scout alts arrives or when the "pilot" isn't paying attention they're going to be noticed. Likewise unless the pilots in local are morons and leave their ships named "so and so's whatever" the aggressors aren't going to be able to load up a directional scan page, add names to their contact list, and say, "Okay, this guy's online and probably in this system so we've potentially got a minimum of X people here." Furthermore unless they're quick on the draw with narrowing down sections of the scan, or potential targets are simply out of the scan range from a jump gate, people in local will have a chance of either docking up (which will effectively provide free intel to aggressors) at a station or hiding at a POS before someone can notice the change in position and get a more accurate count of the local population.

I think you're missing the part where requiring alts for the sole purpose of sitting cloaked off gates just to replace local chat intel is an utterly ******** mechanic.

The ONLY intel local chat gives you is WHO is in the system, along with any intel that is voluntarily shared by other characters in the system (which can for obvious reasons be faulty). Lore-wise this can be explained by the fact that ships communicate via access to a grid of beacons in space using quantum entanglement communicators, which broadcast to other connected ships the list of players who are accessing these beacons at that time. There are no such beacons in wormhole space so communication is probably done via some other FTL technique not involving quantum entanglement, but the downside to this is that no connections are made between ships until explicitly authorized by the pilot.

With regards to the thread in any case, cloaking is fine as-is, and I say this as someone who is reluctant to rat in systems because of AFK cloakers. In that situation I just move elsewhere.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
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