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MWD + Cloak Questiosns

Author
soul searching
Doomheim
#1 - 2011-10-10 21:20:21 UTC
1. After jumping, gate cloaks prevent the activation of modules thus I can't push cloak + mwd immediately after align, and spamming can turn off the cloaking device prematurely. What's the best practice of handling this?

2. Is there a sure fire way to tell whether my ship was lockable or not after the execution of a mwd + cloak? I mean due to lag sometimes the mwd runs for a second or two longer and I float there like a lemon waiting for my max speed to drop... or the mwd deactivates on cue but the cloak is playing up and I decelerate below 75% base velocity before it reacts. I imagine with agile ships you can just let the cloak run for a second longer and it's sorted, but what to do if the timing is tight to begin with?

3. Does the lock time of gate campers matter at all or does latency make a lock impossible if the trick is executed properly?

4. In the process of training for a mastodon, what kind of skills would I need to make this work if I have two inertia stab II's fitted? I have spaceship command 5 and evasive maneuvering 4, is that enough or do I need overheating? (Yes I will use the prowler, please don't go there.)

Thanks!
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2011-10-10 21:45:02 UTC
soul searching wrote:
1. After jumping, gate cloaks prevent the activation of modules thus I can't push cloak + mwd immediately after align, and spamming can turn off the cloaking device prematurely. What's the best practice of handling this?


Practice makes perfect. Seriously. It's just one of those things you have to get a "feel" for because you can never tell if/when the sever decides to lag a bit or not lag at all... which does affect module activation and deactivation.
So yeah... just practice a bit in high-sec until you get a feel for the timing and movement.

Quote:
2. Is there a sure fire way to tell whether my ship was lockable or not after the execution of a mwd + cloak? I mean due to lag sometimes the mwd runs for a second or two longer and I float there like a lemon waiting for my max speed to drop... or the mwd deactivates on cue but the cloak is playing up and I decelerate below 75% base velocity before it reacts. I imagine with agile ships you can just let the cloak run for a second longer and it's sorted, but what to do if the timing is tight to begin with?


Once the cloaking device starts glowing green, you are officially cloaked and cannot be locked. As simple as that.
Beyond this, it's handy to know that even the best of interceptor pilots need at least 1 or 2 second(s) to see and click your ship when it appears on the overview... and another .5 to 1 second(s) more to actually lock you. So there is a bit of "leeway."

Quote:
3. Does the lock time of gate campers matter at all or does latency make a lock impossible if the trick is executed properly?


A little of column A, a little of column B.
Gate campers will always try to have ships that can lock insanely fast so they can catch as many people as possible. However, latency (and player reflexes) does play a factor in how long it takes for the system to register the clicks on the overview and how quick the modules activate on the target once locked (even "primed" modules can lag).

Quote:
4. In the process of training for a mastodon, what kind of skills would I need to make this work if I have two inertia stab II's fitted? I have spaceship command 5 and evasive maneuvering 4, is that enough or do I need overheating? (Yes I will use the prowler, please don't go there.)


lol. Pretty much all you need are "Navigation" and "Ship" skills to use a hauler properly (plus the skill "Cloaking).
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#3 - 2011-10-10 22:23:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
soul searching wrote:
1. After jumping, gate cloaks prevent the activation of modules thus I can't push cloak + mwd immediately after align, and spamming can turn off the cloaking device prematurely. What's the best practice of handling this?

2. Is there a sure fire way to tell whether my ship was lockable or not after the execution of a mwd + cloak? I mean due to lag sometimes the mwd runs for a second or two longer and I float there like a lemon waiting for my max speed to drop... or the mwd deactivates on cue but the cloak is playing up and I decelerate below 75% base velocity before it reacts. I imagine with agile ships you can just let the cloak run for a second longer and it's sorted, but what to do if the timing is tight to begin with?

3. Does the lock time of gate campers matter at all or does latency make a lock impossible if the trick is executed properly?

4. In the process of training for a mastodon, what kind of skills would I need to make this work if I have two inertia stab II's fitted? I have spaceship command 5 and evasive maneuvering 4, is that enough or do I need overheating? (Yes I will use the prowler, please don't go there.)

Thanks!


I don't really understand if you are hauling stuff in high/null/low but I'll admit it's for low/null.

The only ships you can warp with being cloaked can use cover ops device, everything else has 70+% chances you get caught at the first gate camp unless they are really dumb.

Can you fly the Orca? - because you'll be just at a few more weeks training for the rorqual. (you can train both tbh)

Advantages?
- 1.5B isk instead of 5B for jump freighter
- you can haul the same amount of stuff (I'd say + but I'm not sure of this)
-corporate hangar
-drone bay providing some defence
-jump the same distance (who cares of gate camps?)
-industrials around will love you and pay you good enough for the risk

However:
- you'll need the cyno alt or someone doing this for you
-you can't haul stuff with from high sec to low/null while with jump freighter you can
-you need to be aware of your fuel stock
-you need to plan your destination route carefully (use jump planner it's good enough)

Jump Freighter:
while you can jump from no matter where in high sec directly to low/null (depending on the distance and your skills) to get back to high sec you'll not be able to cyno up in high sec.

You still need to jump in to the closest low sec system (0.4 or 0.3) with station is better, and then jump normally in to high sec
Remember that every one can warp to your alt's cyno bacon so you better know what you are doing.

I'd start with the Rorqual to make fast enough isk to buy the jump freighter but I will never advice you to use regular freighters in null low unless you have a very good escort.

Quote:
Beyond this, it's handy to know that even the best of interceptor pilots need at least 1 or 2 second(s) to see and click your ship when it appears on the overview... and another .5 to 1 second(s) more to actually lock you. So there is a bit of "leeway.


An experienced ceptor pilot will "3clik" on gridd the sec you are visible, if he gets it and has drones assigned he will decloak you and chances are you are dead.
T2 transport ships use cov ops cloaking devices, yes they haul less but chances you get caught are small unless you fall in to some heavy bubbled gate.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#4 - 2011-10-10 23:41:33 UTC
soul searching wrote:

4. In the process of training for a mastodon, what kind of skills would I need to make this work if I have two inertia stab II's fitted? I have spaceship command 5 and evasive maneuvering 4, is that enough or do I need overheating? (Yes I will use the prowler, please don't go there.)


Something to consider is that your time to warp when using the MWD-cloak trick is entirely dependent on the MWD cycle time, not agility. I-stabs could actually hurt, as they both increase sig and make you fall below the 75% speed threshold more quickly if you're having trouble with the timing. I'd drop them for two WCS on that Mastodon fit, they'll help more in the rare case when you get uncloaked.
9th candle
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-10-11 00:33:29 UTC  |  Edited by: 9th candle
Tanya Powers wrote:
The only ships you can warp with being cloaked can use cover ops device, everything else has 70+% chances you get caught at the first gate camp unless they are really dumb.


Either I'm on a VERY long lucky streak or the hundreds of ships I and most certainly many others have sneaked through camps beg to differ.

As for the rest of your post: There are people who need directions and sometimes aren't even sure they asked the right questions. I am sure they appreciate the kind of post you made greatly. Then there are folks like me who know exactly what they want and how they want it and - despite seeing your good intentions - get genuinely pissed if you start talking about alternatives and their pros and cons. I hate being like that. But seeing how specific the OP's questions were I am willing to bet money he feels something like that. Assumptions of system security are irrelevant to answering her questions.

Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
soul searching wrote:

4. In the process of training for a mastodon, what kind of skills would I need to make this work if I have two inertia stab II's fitted? I have spaceship command 5 and evasive maneuvering 4, is that enough or do I need overheating? (Yes I will use the prowler, please don't go there.)


Something to consider is that your time to warp when using the MWD-cloak trick is entirely dependent on the MWD cycle time, not agility. I-stabs could actually hurt, as they both increase sig and make you fall below the 75% speed threshold more quickly if you're having trouble with the timing. I'd drop them for two WCS on that Mastodon fit, they'll help more in the rare case when you get uncloaked.


You are right IF the ship has no trouble reaching 75% speed in a single mwd cycle in the first place. This however is not true for DSTs, they align painfully slow... somewhere around 30s base. Even with max skills I think you wouldn't make it to 75% in time unless you fit some istabs.
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-10-11 11:29:25 UTC
9th candle wrote:

You are right IF the ship has no trouble reaching 75% speed in a single mwd cycle in the first place. This however is not true for DSTs, they align painfully slow... somewhere around 30s base. Even with max skills I think you wouldn't make it to 75% in time unless you fit some istabs.


This is my experience - even with good skills it's touch and go whether a max-cargo fitted T2 DST ship will be at 75% when the MWD cuts out, which means you might have to keep accelerating for a short period of time with no cloak. It seems to be dependent on lag, sometimes you can get from cloak to warp instantly - other times there is a small (less than 2 second) delay. Adding 1-2 i-stabs helps reduce this problem.

A nano-cane on the other hand can easily hit warp as soon as the MWD disengages.

I wouldn't like to take a DST through a full-on gate camp and rely on the cloak-MWD trick.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#7 - 2011-10-12 01:42:08 UTC
9th candle wrote:

You are right IF the ship has no trouble reaching 75% speed in a single mwd cycle in the first place. This however is not true for DSTs, they align painfully slow... somewhere around 30s base. Even with max skills I think you wouldn't make it to 75% in time unless you fit some istabs.


Didn't know that, thanks! God that's depressing considering a plated BS can manage it fairly easily in one MWD cycle from my limited experience.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2011-10-12 02:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
soul searching wrote:
1. After jumping, gate cloaks prevent the activation of modules thus I can't push cloak + mwd immediately after align, and spamming can turn off the cloaking device prematurely. What's the best practice of handling this?
Align and wait until your speed changes from 0 m/s. As mentioned earlier, practice makes perfect and you will develop a feel for it.

I rarely disable the cloak with a second tap, but instead get a message that the module is already active. This happens when the activations are less than a second apart, so it doesn't take that long to realize something is wrong and react.

soul searching wrote:
2. Is there a sure fire way to tell whether my ship was lockable or not after the execution of a mwd + cloak? I mean due to lag sometimes the mwd runs for a second or two longer and I float there like a lemon waiting for my max speed to drop... or the mwd deactivates on cue but the cloak is playing up and I decelerate below 75 percent base velocity before it reacts. I imagine with agile ships you can just let the cloak run for a second longer and it's sorted, but what to do if the timing is tight to begin with?
Were you warp disrupted and shot at? If yes, then for sure you were lockable. If not, then it doesn't matter.

soul searching wrote:
3. Does the lock time of gate campers matter at all or does latency make a lock impossible if the trick is executed properly?
Lock time and luck matters. A faster lock reduces the margin for error. Bored gate campers are slower to react too.

soul searching wrote:
4. In the process of training for a mastodon, what kind of skills would I need to make this work if I have two inertia stab II's fitted? I have spaceship command 5 and evasive maneuvering 4, is that enough or do I need overheating? (Yes I will use the prowler, please don't go there.)
The technique doesn't change, however you'd be better off in a Prowler (blockade runner) with containers.

CCP Dropbear even linked a video of how it is done: MWD+cloak trick..how to do it ?

I prefer: EVE tutorial: Cloak - mwd trick

FYI I've also done it in a Rorqual, but I had to overheat the 100MN MWD to get the behemoth moving. When the capital shield booster took heat damage (rare) it took a ton of nanite paste to repair the capital-sized module.
Handsome Hussein
#9 - 2011-10-12 18:42:44 UTC
soul searching wrote:
1. After jumping, gate cloaks prevent the activation of modules thus I can't push cloak + mwd immediately after align, and spamming can turn off the cloaking device prematurely. What's the best practice of handling this?

Double-click in a direction. As soon as speed changes from 0 m/s click MWD and then click cloak. If you're in a camp, once the MWD has spooled to about half velocity change your vector by about 45 degrees or so. This helps prevent any campers from decloaking you by getting within range. With luck you should float out of any bubbles (in null) and/or confuse your aggressors (in low) enough to get to a suitable warp-out point. Once you feel safe/are out of a bubble, warp off.

I have used this technique with a Nemesis and a Crane in both low and null sec, under varying conditions, and have yet to be caught. (crosses fingers) No need to spam either, or use the keyboard (unless you prefer it). I find simply moving and clicking the mouse to create a "nominal" time-span to avoid module interference.

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.

soul searching
Doomheim
#10 - 2011-10-13 13:52:38 UTC
Thanks guys, these posts answered most of my questions, the acceleration formula answered the last (need rougly 15% more inertia reduction). The reason I want to use the mastodon is because I have a lot of stuff to haul from a low static wh to high sec on a daily basis. Obviously I will default to the prowler if the boundary systems are heavily camped but the mwd trick + the mastodon's warp core strength + tank should be enough to safely handle the occassional lone campers in desolate systems. I wanted to make sure I executed the trick properly because being new I don't really fancy practicing on a 100 mill ship. So again, thanks.