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Changes are Coming. High, Low and Null will be Mixing More
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#81 - 2012-07-22 12:23:27 UTC
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Mudflation is laughable. The balance of having rare minerals only in low sec balances the games ecomony alot. I really don't see alot of the problems some claim exist. My first character (Andrasta) opened in June 03, I recall people logging on after DT to sell to NPC corps while prices were still high (to stimulate ecomonic growth the NPCs bought minerals in fixed amounts). I have seen the ecomony of the game durings its entire existence and fail to see these adverse effects of high sec miners.

It isn't a matter of the adverse effects of high sec miners, there are a lot of issues contributing to mudflation. Did you see me pinning it exclusively on high sec miners? No? Cool.

My point was merely to highlight the stupidity of your statement that low sec warfare is simply "blob vs. blob", because the fact that I have been care bearing successfully in low sec and null sec in a three man corporation consisting purely of alts kind of blows it out the water.

And if you ever actually visited low sec, instead of just posting utter BS about it, then you'd be aware of the fact that my set up in this game is relatively common. A lot of solo players and very small corps operate there.

Also, mining in low sec is ridiculous and if you are honestly proposing that low sec mining is currently balanced I highly recommend you try it.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-07-22 13:12:55 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
because you feel entitled to nullsec levels of income with hisec convenience and safety

Good thing they don't have that then, isn't it?
Strike Severasse wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Strike Severasse wrote:
CCP needs ppl in low and null sec for Dust 514 to work.
EVE needs Dust 514 to do well and get EVE subscriptions Increasing.

These are facts, plain and simple.

Opinions, plain and simple.

Opinions? Of course fool, I'm not a dev or gm....
Anything useful now? I'm thinking.......hmmm. NOT Shocked

As useful as it deserved, and more useful than your OP because it was based on objective reality.
Next?

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#83 - 2012-07-22 13:19:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
because you feel entitled to nullsec levels of income with hisec convenience and safety

Good thing they don't have that then, isn't it?
Strike Severasse wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Strike Severasse wrote:
CCP needs ppl in low and null sec for Dust 514 to work.
EVE needs Dust 514 to do well and get EVE subscriptions Increasing.

These are facts, plain and simple.

Opinions, plain and simple.

Opinions? Of course fool, I'm not a dev or gm....
Anything useful now? I'm thinking.......hmmm. NOT Shocked

As useful as it deserved, and more useful than your OP because it was based on objective reality.
Next?

Actually high sec income is arguably as high or higher than low and null sec income once you allow for either rent or time wasted in CTAs, and the inevitable associated losses.

The fact that you can sit down in high sec and instantly start grinding out missions or jump into an incursion fleet means it is unrealistic to measure the value of the PvE in pure ISK per hour. The only "balanced" part of the game I can think of in this respect is currently exploration.

Exploration follows a pretty nice curve in terms of difficulty, resources required etc. from high to low. And it also has pretty well balanced rewards.

Missions, anoms and mining however are pretty borked in terms of risk/reward. Hopefully CCP will finish addressing the mining side of this with ring mining, they made a pretty good start on it with the drone poo nerf.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Taranius De Consolville
Doomheim
#84 - 2012-07-22 13:20:37 UTC
NULL SEC is boring

End of conversation

If you don't have a blob, sit tight n dock till people log on

High Sec

Missions
Mining
Exploration
Wh's

There is nothing i need nor want in null sec

If i need an ISK boost, ill buy 4 plexes and sell them.

EvE is fecked, remove plex, sort low sec out so gate guns and station guns ARE not tankable and more will go to low sec. Stop people camping choke points into null 24/7 n people will go there

You screw your own pvp areas on your own

stop bitching about high sec players when you cannot even show me a single thread were a high sec player has bitched about null sec being more profitable than his high sec

why?

BECAUSE US PLAYERS IN HIGH SEC DONT CARE ABOUT NULL/LOW SEC AT ALL

PvP Players - You whine and ***** worst than a woman on her period
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#85 - 2012-07-22 13:24:05 UTC
Taranius De Consolville wrote:
NULL SEC is boring

End of conversation

If you don't have a blob, sit tight n dock till people log on

High Sec

Missions
Mining
Exploration
Wh's

There is nothing i need nor want in null sec

If i need an ISK boost, ill buy 4 plexes and sell them.

EvE is fecked, remove plex, sort low sec out so gate guns and station guns ARE not tankable and more will go to low sec. Stop people camping choke points into null 24/7 n people will go there

You screw your own pvp areas on your own

stop bitching about high sec players when you cannot even show me a single thread were a high sec player has bitched about null sec being more profitable than his high sec

why?

BECAUSE US PLAYERS IN HIGH SEC DONT CARE ABOUT NULL/LOW SEC AT ALL

PvP Players - You whine and ***** worst than a woman on her period

Why do you high sec types assume we are all evil PvP players and pirates? I'm a care bear, tyvm, and I still think you're an idiot.

Those choke points are easy to identify and get past, if you can't be bothered to learn then you dont deserve to be able to make any significant amount of ISK in Eve.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Dave Stark
#86 - 2012-07-22 13:25:58 UTC
Taranius De Consolville wrote:
NULL SEC is boring

End of conversation

you're so wrong it's painful.

null is the most fun area of the game. the people are better, the array of activities are broader, there are no limits to what you can do in null in comparison to high sec.
Taranius De Consolville
Doomheim
#87 - 2012-07-22 13:35:40 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Taranius De Consolville wrote:
NULL SEC is boring

End of conversation

you're so wrong it's painful.

null is the most fun area of the game. the people are better, the array of activities are broader, there are no limits to what you can do in null in comparison to high sec.



Um

PvP/Rat/Exploration/Mine/Anomolies/Wh's

Now lets look at empire

PvP/Rat/Exploration/Mine/Anomolies/Wh's

Yah i can see the MASSIVE diffrence between high sec and null sec

Yup, its right there

I can see it, deffo, thats me on the next train to null sec
Taranius De Consolville
Doomheim
#88 - 2012-07-22 13:36:58 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Taranius De Consolville wrote:
NULL SEC is boring

End of conversation

If you don't have a blob, sit tight n dock till people log on

High Sec

Missions
Mining
Exploration
Wh's

There is nothing i need nor want in null sec

If i need an ISK boost, ill buy 4 plexes and sell them.

EvE is fecked, remove plex, sort low sec out so gate guns and station guns ARE not tankable and more will go to low sec. Stop people camping choke points into null 24/7 n people will go there

You screw your own pvp areas on your own

stop bitching about high sec players when you cannot even show me a single thread were a high sec player has bitched about null sec being more profitable than his high sec

why?

BECAUSE US PLAYERS IN HIGH SEC DONT CARE ABOUT NULL/LOW SEC AT ALL

PvP Players - You whine and ***** worst than a woman on her period

Why do you high sec types assume we are all evil PvP players and pirates? I'm a care bear, tyvm, and I still think you're an idiot.

Those choke points are easy to identify and get past, if you can't be bothered to learn then you dont deserve to be able to make any significant amount of ISK in Eve.


Again, greed, why do i need billions os isk? whats the point? long as i got over a hundred mill, i dont need anymore, anymore is a bonus

how am i an idiot? because i have a diffrent view? elite null sec players 4tw er?
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-07-22 13:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuri Kinnes
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Actually high sec income is arguably as high or higher than low and null sec income once you allow for either rent or time wasted in CTAs, and the inevitable associated losses.

The fact that you can sit down in high sec and instantly start grinding out missions or jump into an incursion fleet means it is unrealistic to measure the value of the PvE in pure ISK per hour. The only "balanced" part of the game I can think of in this respect is currently exploration.

Exploration follows a pretty nice curve in terms of difficulty, resources required etc. from high to low. And it also has pretty well balanced rewards.

Missions, anoms and mining however are pretty borked in terms of risk/reward. Hopefully CCP will finish addressing the mining side of this with ring mining, they made a pretty good start on it with the drone poo nerf.

Hi-Sec will *always* (as long as anything even remotely resembling current mechanics are in effect) be more conducive to the type of play you describe than low or null.

Exactly because it isn't entertaining enough to interrupt to any great degree all the "alts" at their business.

Even if / when the rewards get lowered "enough" (in hi-sec) there will still be people for whom null-sec/low-sec won't be attractive at all. So I predict that those people (and it is an unknown number) will play less and less until they quit while some (small) number will move somewhere else. I say "small" because if they wanted to be in low/null, they would be.

So income in hi-sec will almost (imho) always appear "too high" because time wasted in CTA's, associated losses or rent ( and only rent is actually quantifiable) will be prohibitive (or appear prohibitive) to a lot of people.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#90 - 2012-07-22 14:13:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Hi-Sec will *always* (as long as anything even remotely resembling current mechanics are in effect) be more conducive to the type of play you describe than low or null.

Exactly because it isn't entertaining enough to interrupt to any great degree all the "alts" at their business.

Even if / when the rewards get lowered "enough" (in hi-sec) there will still be people for whom null-sec/low-sec won't be attractive at all. So I predict that those people (and it is an unknown number) will play less and less until they quit while some (small) number will move somewhere else. I say "small" because if they wanted to be in low/null, they would be.

So income in hi-sec will almost (imho) always appear "too high" because time wasted in CTA's, associated losses or rent ( and only rent is actually quantifiable) will be prohibitive (or appear prohibitive) to a lot of people.

I agree that in terms of outright nerfing high sec rewards some players will still cease to visit low or null, but there are other approaches that would be more suitable. It's also important to remember that sometimes forcing people into low and null isn't the goal, the goal is merely to make those in low and null feel like there is a point to them being there.

For example with exploration the profit increases suitable because the items harvested by players via exploration are available only in those areas. This means the price is set by supply and demand, and I would like to see a similar system set up for most other aspects of Eve.

IIRC there was some talk a while back (possibly at fan fest?) of item production being pushed toward T2 in null, faction in low sec and meta in high sec. Currently industry in null sec is a bit of a joke, local production is completely pointless due to lack of slots and the ease with which modules and ships can be imported via JF.

I'm not a particularly great fan of simply nerfing mission rewards or the like, although I dare say some aspects of high sec could do with changing (E.G. war dec evasion and NPC corp hauling/mining). Instead I'd prefer to see null sec industry buffed, and make it so that only certain items can be found in the varying areas of Eve.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#91 - 2012-07-22 14:17:12 UTC
Taranius De Consolville wrote:
Again, greed, why do i need billions os isk? whats the point? long as i got over a hundred mill, i dont need anymore, anymore is a bonus

how am i an idiot? because i have a diffrent view? elite null sec players 4tw er?

This is why you are an idiot:

Taranius De Consolville wrote:
If you don't have a blob, sit tight n dock till people log on

(...)

sort low sec out so gate guns and station guns ARE not tankable and more will go to low sec. Stop people camping choke points into null 24/7 n people will go there

You cannot get past low sec gate camps, and you apparently require a blob as support in order to PvE in null sec.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Ms Kat
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2012-07-22 14:24:17 UTC
Taranius De Consolville wrote:
NULL SEC is boring

End of conversation

If you don't have a blob, sit tight n dock till people log on

High Sec

Missions
Mining
Exploration
Wh's

There is nothing i need nor want in null sec

If i need an ISK boost, ill buy 4 plexes and sell them.

EvE is fecked, remove plex, sort low sec out so gate guns and station guns ARE not tankable and more will go to low sec. Stop people camping choke points into null 24/7 n people will go there

You screw your own pvp areas on your own

stop bitching about high sec players when you cannot even show me a single thread were a high sec player has bitched about null sec being more profitable than his high sec

why?

BECAUSE US PLAYERS IN HIGH SEC DONT CARE ABOUT NULL/LOW SEC AT ALL

PvP Players - You whine and ***** worst than a woman on her period



Bolded the important pieces of this post.

I think you accidently made a very good point there.

Lowsec - ment to be inbetween the "safety" of highsec and the "lawless" null sec. I think that making gate guns un tankable would be a great move, it would offer new pvpers the options of pvping in low sec - scanning down plex's/missions, killing in belts etc. But at the same time giving the newer less experienced pvpers a option to vie out of pvp in lowsec. Dont get me wrong there should be no concord.


That i propose (because of the above post)

highsec - CONCORD/gate/station guns

Lowsec - gate and station guns

Nullsec - freefor all anything goes.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#93 - 2012-07-22 14:30:29 UTC
Ms Kat wrote:
Bolded the important pieces of this post.

I think you accidently made a very good point there.

Lowsec - ment to be inbetween the "safety" of highsec and the "lawless" null sec. I think that making gate guns un tankable would be a great move, it would offer new pvpers the options of pvping in low sec - scanning down plex's/missions, killing in belts etc. But at the same time giving the newer less experienced pvpers a option to vie out of pvp in lowsec. Dont get me wrong there should be no concord.


That i propose (because of the above post)

highsec - CONCORD/gate/station guns

Lowsec - gate and station guns

Nullsec - freefor all anything goes.


I think you're missing the purpose of gate guns, they aren't there to save your ass if you do something stupid, they're there so people can't gate camp in frigates and interceptors.

This means you can always get through in a cloaked ship or frigate, occasionally you might die in a frigate if you jump into a very heavily camped system and they have a remote sebo'd ship on gate but it's rare.

As it stands due to local you are already very safe in space in low sec, especially mission running since people have to launch probes to find you and you can see those probes on directional. Your proposal doesn't really help rookies that much, because we'd still kill them in space, what it does do is make us older players 100% safe and remove all effort required for low sec hauling and logistics.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Ms Kat
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2012-07-22 14:33:47 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Ms Kat wrote:
Bolded the important pieces of this post.

I think you accidently made a very good point there.

Lowsec - ment to be inbetween the "safety" of highsec and the "lawless" null sec. I think that making gate guns un tankable would be a great move, it would offer new pvpers the options of pvping in low sec - scanning down plex's/missions, killing in belts etc. But at the same time giving the newer less experienced pvpers a option to vie out of pvp in lowsec. Dont get me wrong there should be no concord.


That i propose (because of the above post)

highsec - CONCORD/gate/station guns

Lowsec - gate and station guns

Nullsec - freefor all anything goes.


I think you're missing the purpose of gate guns, they aren't there to save your ass if you do something stupid, they're there so people can't gate camp in frigates and interceptors.

This means you can always get through in a cloaked ship or frigate, occasionally you might die in a frigate if you jump into a very heavily camped system and they have a remote sebo'd ship on gate but it's rare.

As it stands due to local you are already very safe in space in low sec, especially mission running since people have to launch probes to find you and you can see those probes on directional. Your proposal doesn't really help rookies that much, because we'd still kill them in space, what it does do is make us older players 100% safe and remove all effort required for low sec hauling and logistics.



Isnt lowsec pretty much dead as it stands? Isnt the major problem CCP have is getting people in low/null? We need to stop thinking of how the mechanics are and what they are ment to be and rethink it all. I stand by this idea as a player from 2004 its the best thing suggested on these forums in a long time
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#95 - 2012-07-22 14:39:02 UTC
Ms Kat wrote:
Isnt lowsec pretty much dead as it stands? Isnt the major problem CCP have is getting people in low/null? We need to stop thinking of how the mechanics are and what they are ment to be and rethink it all. I stand by this idea as a player from 2004 its the best thing suggested on these forums in a long time

Not if it means turning low sec into high sec.

You are essentially suggesting we revitalise low sec by making it less like low sec. This game has already become ridiculously easy, dumbing it down even more because some people refuse to learn is just going to drive away what little is left of the loyal fan base.

It might give a brief burst in activity, but most of us who play Eve because it's challenging will simply quit. I've already lost the vast majority of my friends in Eve because they quit due to the direction the game has gone in over the last few years. I'd rather not lose the few players I know that still remain from when I first joined, all because some idiots can't get past gate camps.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Ms Kat
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2012-07-22 14:42:25 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Ms Kat wrote:
Isnt lowsec pretty much dead as it stands? Isnt the major problem CCP have is getting people in low/null? We need to stop thinking of how the mechanics are and what they are ment to be and rethink it all. I stand by this idea as a player from 2004 its the best thing suggested on these forums in a long time

Not if it means turning low sec into high sec.

You are essentially suggesting we revitalise low sec by making it less like low sec. This game has already become ridiculously easy, dumbing it down even more because some people refuse to learn is just going to drive away what little is left of the loyal fan base.

It might give a brief burst in activity, but most of us who play Eve because it's challenging will simply quit. I've already lost the vast majority of my friends in Eve because they quit due to the direction the game has gone in over the last few years. I'd rather not lose the few players I know that still remain from when I first joined, all because some idiots can't get past gate camps.



Maybe its time to do some gardening, and pull out tho's last weeds and twisted bitter vines(vets) to improve the game and playerbase?
Cloud' Strife
The Pegasus Project
#97 - 2012-07-22 14:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Cloud' Strife
bugged forum ate my reply, not typing it again.....Evil
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#98 - 2012-07-22 14:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Ms Kat wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Not if it means turning low sec into high sec.

You are essentially suggesting we revitalise low sec by making it less like low sec. This game has already become ridiculously easy, dumbing it down even more because some people refuse to learn is just going to drive away what little is left of the loyal fan base.

It might give a brief burst in activity, but most of us who play Eve because it's challenging will simply quit. I've already lost the vast majority of my friends in Eve because they quit due to the direction the game has gone in over the last few years. I'd rather not lose the few players I know that still remain from when I first joined, all because some idiots can't get past gate camps.



Maybe its time to do some gardening, and pull out tho's last weeds and twisted bitter vines(vets) to improve the game and playerbase?

Hmm, I'd probably argue that the kind of player attracted by high sec style gameplay is not one that would be an "improvement".

Looking at the stats the average high sec player has <5m SP, meaning that they cannot stay in Eve very long. Does that make them more valuable? More numerous, perhaps. But how long would Eve last if it began catering to them to the detriment of it's loyal older players?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Ms Kat
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2012-07-22 14:51:04 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Ms Kat wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Not if it means turning low sec into high sec.

You are essentially suggesting we revitalise low sec by making it less like low sec. This game has already become ridiculously easy, dumbing it down even more because some people refuse to learn is just going to drive away what little is left of the loyal fan base.

It might give a brief burst in activity, but most of us who play Eve because it's challenging will simply quit. I've already lost the vast majority of my friends in Eve because they quit due to the direction the game has gone in over the last few years. I'd rather not lose the few players I know that still remain from when I first joined, all because some idiots can't get past gate camps.



Maybe its time to do some gardening, and pull out tho's last weeds and twisted bitter vines(vets) to improve the game and playerbase?

Hmm, I'd probably argue that the kind of player attracted by high sec style gameplay is not one that would be an "improvement".

Looking at the stats the average high sec player has <5m SP, meaning that they cannot stay in Eve very long. Does that make them more valuable? More numerous, perhaps. But how long would Eve last if it began catering to them to the detriment of it's loyal older players?



Didnt the latest surveys results indicate something like 90%+ of the eve playerbase play for the PVE element and something as little as under 10% for PvP? At the end of the day, CCP is a company who only truely cares about profits. Now if a change brings in more players and higher profits they will make it. This change not only would boost the playerbase, but also boost pvp as a side effect. low sec is DEAD....... EMPTY appart from a few people exploiting FW maybe. Why not change and utilise this space to bring in mroe players and entertain a wider number of the playerbase?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#100 - 2012-07-22 14:55:09 UTC
Ms Kat wrote:
Didnt the latest surveys results indicate something like 90%+ of the eve playerbase play for the PVE element and something as little as under 10% for PvP? At the end of the day, CCP is a company who only truely cares about profits. Now if a change brings in more players and higher profits they will make it. This change not only would boost the playerbase, but also boost pvp as a side effect. low sec is DEAD....... EMPTY appart from a few people exploiting FW maybe. Why not change and utilise this space to bring in mroe players and entertain a wider number of the playerbase?

No, the surveys didn't show that. If you can find the thread I'll show you why. That was more a case of some idiots not understanding statistics, trying to use it to support his argument and then running with it despite having it explained to him.

And because buffing gate guns isn't the only way to change low sec?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]