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Wars and Newer Carebear pilots
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-07-20 14:50:29 UTC

Here is a scenario that is played out many times in highsec. All names have been changed to protect the innocent and guilty.


A half dozen newer (-2 months) pilots get together and decide it would be cool to do some carebear stuff... Mine, Mission run, Haul stuff, etc. They shout CAREBEAR INC we’ll call it!

A small (three pilots) highsec wardec corp (WAR INC) sees them in local, checks out their corp info and notices with the exception of one pilot that is six months old the rest are around a month making them very easy targets. This shouldn't be a problem since all three WAR pilots are older than two years and have high skills. A few hours of quick research reveals pretty much everything they need to know. 24 hours and 50 mil ISK later the war starts.

The CAREBEAR noobs sit cluelessly at a belt when these three flashy things warp in... Oh no! Their CEO doesn’t really have much more sense than the rest but he is smart enough to warp the fleet once he realizes what is going on. Half of them make it to safety but it’s too late for three of the ships and one pod.

The CAREBEAR CEO cries to the WAR CEO about how he will report him to CCP but the WAR CEO laughs and explains it’s all within the rules of the game.

The CAREBEAR CEO rallies his pilots and says “We won't take this lying down!” He gets in his Drake and convinces two more pilots to fly a Caracal and a Kestrel. He challenges the WAR CEO to a fight!

The WAR CEO says we’ll take you on! They all warp to the first planet. WAR brings two Hurricanes and a Harbinger. The fight is over in seconds and the noobs are confused why they died so fast. A quick look at the killmail shows the Drake was T2 but active tanked... The Caracal and kestrel were all T1 and completely fail fitted.

After a few more skirmishes the CAREBEAR CEO tells his members that they have no chance against the all powerful WAR pilots... The WAR CEO decides since these guys are so easy they will extend the war another week or two...

The end result is...

The CAREBEAR corp falls. Three of their pilots never get back online. Their subscription has expired. They decided they could not compete in the world of Eve. CCP lost $45 a month.

The other three left the corp and moved on to other corps. I’m not sure what happened to them in the long run.

I’m not saying end wars but currently wars are so cheap and fighting a bunch of noobs gets you some real easy kills without having to leave the safety of highsec. I’m speaking from knowledge of both aspects. I currently have pilots as the CEO of a highsec wardec corp and the CEO of the carebear corp.


Killing noobs can be lots of fun but I hate to see them leave the game...


When it comes to war decs against my carebear pilot I’m not going anywhere. Some of my newer members will quit Eve or leave my corp but I can just stay docked up for a few months and wait out any war. I’ve been playing Eve almost three years so a few month break will give me time to set some long skills. A month old player isn’t going to stay docked up more than a week or two before he decides that Eve just isn’t any fun and stops paying for his account.

Does anyone have thoughts or suggestions?

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CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#2 - 2012-07-20 15:08:02 UTC
There's a few options. Hire mercs (can be pricey) or join an alliance and, as the war-dec'd corp, call in an ally to help pulverize them all.


There's also some corps you might want to consider joining that can help foster/protect you until you get some age under your belt.
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#3 - 2012-07-20 15:14:44 UTC
TBH if they don't have the chops to stick it out and learn the game Eve is better off without them. A simple solution would be, disband the corp, join NPC corps, and create a pw protected channel for them to all work together. It's essentially like being in a corp together however you use mechanics to avoid greifing by highsec losers like those mentioned in your post.

nom nom
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-07-20 15:18:03 UTC
IIshira wrote:
The end result is...

The CAREBEAR corp falls. Three of their pilots never get back online. Their subscription has expired. They decided they could not compete in the world of Eve. CCP lost $45 a month.

The other three left the corp and moved on to other corps. I’m not sure what happened to them in the long run.


And they would be quite correct, if losing ships leads them to not wanting to play the game, then yes, they could not compete.

CCP isn't out to milk everybody for their last penny just to make money. CCP wants to create a consistent universe with a set of principles and rules - and among those principles is the fact that you will lose, and how you deal with the loss shapes who you are. People who don't like the rules and principles behind EVE aren't forced to stay.

There are hundreds of other games where you can PvE in peace without being bothered by other people. If that's what the hypothetical people you talk about after, then they made the right choice. Why would you give your money to a company making a game you don't like? Why would a company want money of people who don't like their game?
Marcus Ichiro
IchiCorp
#5 - 2012-07-20 15:49:04 UTC
I'd rather see people leave the game because it isn't for them rather than people leave the game because of an inconsistent ruleset.

I was in that exact situation when I was new in EVE, me and a bunch of other new players decided to make a corp together and do carebear stuff together. However when we were wardec'd, even though it was chaotic and we were pretty much completely clueless, it was FUN.
Adder Nardieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-07-20 16:07:46 UTC
I really hate the idea of "If they can't take it, the game is better off without them." Not really sure what carebears do that is so offensive.

Regardless. This situation posted by the OP is very similar to what just happened to our own corp. Matter of fact, this is the third time it's happened. I myself have only been playing since the end of may, and the majority of our pilots are less than a month old. We do a lot of mission running, a lot of mining....stuff that I imagine would be labeled as carebearing. We however, are still around, due to one major difference from the above scenario. We have a CEO who knows what they are doing.


As posted in a thread a few spaces down (see a win for the miners) we got wardecced by a two person corp that decided since we wouldn't let them flipcan (we have an orca) that they were gonna wardec us for some easy shooting.


Immediately our CEO sent out mails telling everyone what the war meant, the rules, advice on what we should do. Things like training up cloaking, paying attention to local, not flying anything bigger than a battlecruiser to minimize losses. We stopped group mining ops, instead going to solo mining when the two weren't around. Less profit, but still doing what we enjoyed. When the wardeccers taunted us as we sat in our station, we didn't let them draw us out. Finally, one day, after a little bit of focused training and planning, 5 of us left the station and jumped on the ishkur and naga that were camping the station. In the space of 20 minutes, we kept losing ships, redocking and coming out with new ones....we lost 12, but they lost 4, including a podkill on one of them. Most of local was in support of us, the underdogs, as we made it very clear with our actions and our responses to their smacktalk that in the end, they were stroking their epeen over using advanced ships to take down 1 month old characters, and we still managed to give them a bloody nose. The wardec was lifted a few days later.


If anything needs to change, I think it should be that the rules of wardecs need to be more obvious. The first time a character is in a corp that is wardecced, they should get a little tutorial popup similar to the ones during the career path missions. The ragequit usually comes from confused players that don't know what the rules are, thinking that highsec keeps them safe, and not understanding just what the heck T2 means. An ishkur looks just like an incursus to someone who doesn't know better, doesn't understand that it packs a massive drone bay and hits like a brick. If this game isn't for someone, fine, they don't have to play. But give them enough information to make that decision themselves instead of getting beaten up first.
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-07-20 18:03:53 UTC
This situation is incredibly rare since the introduction of the ally system and the raising of the war fee.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. If one highsec wardec makes you quit, so be it.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#8 - 2012-07-20 18:13:29 UTC
By changing game mechanics to coddle carebears, CCP hazards losing a great deal more than $45 a month from a trio of players who may very well have quit anyway. Warfare in highsec needs a lot of work, but there were still plenty of options available to this corp.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#9 - 2012-07-20 18:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
IIshira wrote:
The WAR CEO decides since these guys are so easy they will extend the war another week or two...


That CEO is an idiot then. If you're any good at hunting down the idiots, the target corp will drop members like crazy after they realize they're effectively shut down. The rest will go to ground and hide for the remainder of the war. You don't renew a war because you got a couple of retrievers and one mediocre fight.


IIshira wrote:
Does anyone have thoughts or suggestions?


Make corp ownership non-trivial. The problem is that a bunch of noobs can just jump into their own corp without understanding the risks it exposes them to.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#10 - 2012-07-20 18:54:00 UTC
Unfortunately, there is not much that can realistically be done without hampering other people in the game as well. In this case, the attacking corp's CEO was an asshat. After trouncing the new guys a bit, he should have let the wardec slide and let them recover, maybe learn a bit about that new experience they just had (even now, EVE has one hell of a learning curve).

It really is not that hard to chase away a lot of new players if you really want to. Fortunately most of the pple I have met at least in EVE do not wan't to. They want more players in. Granted, they may want more players out shooting guns at each other than missioning, mining, etc, but hey, to each their own. ;)

More public and active recruitment of some of the brand new players in to 'learning' corps that would be willing to teach them the ropes and give them a quick breakdown on how to avoid being shut down completely by another corp or couple of players would help a lot. Other than that, I really don't know what can be done. High sec is safer, but is not supposed to be totally safe, and it would not be fair to the 0.0 and low sec living players to make it completely pve.

We can hope that a solution that makes everyone happy comes along. Until then, well get some, well lose some, and well play on. ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#11 - 2012-07-20 18:55:21 UTC
As CEO, you have to lead/advise your members. Change corps or disband and keep them together if that's what you want. BUT:

EVE is a gun based environment. The end game is all about PvP imo.

The only thing worse than a small corp of bears...is a LARGE corp of bears.
Imagine that you build a 50 man corp of all carebears before your first wardec. This 50 man corp is no more dangerous than the 3 man corp, but it feels like a much better accomplishment. So when they all scatter like roaches, it feels like a much bigger fail.

My advice: Teach them, learn with them, about some tactics. Teach them how to lose a ship gracefully, and refit another. Fight when you can get a kill, or dock when you can't.
If they don't learn to fight, they will always just be a killmail waiting to happen.
You want a strong corp? Learn to shoot back!
Kyle Ward
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-07-20 19:08:23 UTC
Stay in NPC corps. Almost all of the hisec carebear activities can be done solo anyhow, so banding together and painting a giant target on yourselves is pointless. 11% tax is really not that bad, especially when the other option is exposing yourselves to what is by-far the most broken mechanic in this game. And if you mine or trade or haul or manufacture instead mission run then the tax doesn't even matter.
The only thing I can think of that you can't do in NPC is set up a POS, and I doubt a bunch of month-old nooblets would have much use for one anyhow.
Besides, I actually like listening to the drivel that comes out of NPC corp chat...

The Sandbox, you're playing it wrong!
None ofthe Above
#13 - 2012-07-20 19:39:09 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Kyle Ward wrote:
Stay in NPC corps. Almost all of the hisec carebear activities can be done solo anyhow, so banding together and painting a giant target on yourselves is pointless. 11% tax is really not that bad, especially when the other option is exposing yourselves to what is by-far the most broken mechanic in this game. And if you mine or trade or haul or manufacture instead mission run then the tax doesn't even matter.
The only thing I can think of that you can't do in NPC is set up a POS, and I doubt a bunch of month-old nooblets would have much use for one anyhow.
Besides, I actually like listening to the drivel that comes out of NPC corp chat...


^This.

Not only that, but once the corp fails in the OP's scenario, they can drop corp and be in whatever racial NPC corp is default for them. This happens far more often than the "leave game", in my estimation.

EVE is actually pretty forgiving in this respect. Eventually the burned members will probably heal and figure out better ways to do this.

And FYI - WarDecs are a lot more expensive these days. Relatively speaking not cheap. Not sure how many of these "grief decs" are happening anymore. I've not noticed many since Inferno was released, but that may just be me staying out of the way of such things. Anyone have any statistics or anecdotes?

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Charles Baker
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-07-20 19:53:42 UTC
Crash course all your pilots to fly Rifters/Thrashers within weeks of joining, have them regularly engage each other in combat practice and teach them the basics, you'll be surprised at how much trouble 15 rifters and thrashers would give 2 Canes and a Harby.
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#15 - 2012-07-20 23:02:02 UTC
There should be a tutorial window popping up when someone is wardec'd the first time with stuff like: If you go out there you will probably die, flashing red in overview means mining ship not fine etc...

But otherwise, it seems pretty much working as intended (And was already nerfed in the latest patch)



P.S: NPC-Corp Taxes should rise further Pirate
Talon Kitsune
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-07-20 23:34:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Talon Kitsune
This is a daily occurence and will continue to be, it's the nature of the game. If you were watching the alliance tournament recently it came up that one party had decided to play it straight and not get into the meta aspects to win a match (don't know if it's true, but that's beside the point). Even Soundwave had a hard time keeping a straight face. What's the point? EVE is designed around the principles of ganking, scamming, spying, and everything else that some people (like myself) don't find particularly tasteful.

I see a new pilot looking for help in a mission, I cringe because I know it's a 50/50 chance he's about to get ganked. I go into Jita and I have to add another hundred peeps to my blocked list, and find it discouraging that so many people fall for those scams. Others find that the point of the game, to each his own, I respect the gankers right to gank, I may not like it but hey it's what the game has been tailored to cater to.

Look at my chracter, it's years old but is at like 15 million SP, why? Cause I keep leaving the game. Now I'm back and finding new aspects and ways to keep interested, and am far more likely to stick it out this time. I admit the fact that I know enough now to easily be able to pay for my subscription with game money and still constantly blow more on shiny toys is a big factor as well. You stll see an NPC tag below my name, and it'll probably stay there because I'm a carebear and I know it. I think everyone should be able to play the game the way they want to, CCP doesn't, I accept that and am using the one relatively safe avenue they've left. While recently I've taken an interest in pvp, I still prefer to choose when I do it, so an NPC corp works for me cause I only have to worry about the suicide gankers, and I can opt in and out of the militia when I get the PvP itch.

Bottom line: PvP and griefing is a fact of life in EVE, soon as you pay that subscription fee with real money or game money, you're effectively toggling on PvP and giving the griefers a new target. So if you're going to play, accept this is how it is.
Plaude Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-07-21 09:13:49 UTC
Adder Nardieu wrote:
If anything needs to change, I think it should be that the rules of wardecs need to be more obvious. The first time a character is in a corp that is wardecced, they should get a little tutorial popup similar to the ones during the career path missions.

I like this idea. Maybe expand a bit on it and add a summary of the rules for wardecs to the CONCORD Notification every corp-member receives when their corporation is Wardecced. That would give people who need to quickly review the rules a chance to do that without having to search for them on the internet.

New to EVE? Want to learn? The Crimson Cartel will train you in the fields of _**your **_choice. Mainly active in EU afternoons and evenings. Contact me for more info.
Atreus Kadeyooh
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-07-21 13:28:23 UTC
Wardecs, griefing, scamming, ganking and immense hate toward carebears => reasons why EVE has 40k active in peaks and less and less each year, compared to millions of active players in other games. Its not because the game is hard, its because its the melting pot of all the cowardly suckers that are not wanted elsewhere.

Many people out there find it manly to call people "n00bs" and do their best to pick the weakest targets - well good for them, as a result, most newbies eventually quit EVE. No fresh blood means no fresh money and no fresh people to play with, which will eventually lead to EVE dying out and CCP moving onto another project. EVE is already a very stale game, most of veteran players I ever spoke to were, save for the few planned actions, bored as hell because its the same few blobbers exploding each other over and over again.

I myself like to log in now and then because I generally like sci-fi and spaceships, but the EVE community is likely the worst breed of dejected nerds ever seen in online gaming. I actually visited a real life meeting of a few "EVE pros" in my country a few months ago and it quickly lead to a real brawl. Luckily, all the teen fatties were too clumsy to cause any real harm to each other, but it was fun to watch - internet hero pilots with their squaky voices waving hands pretending to be kung-fu fighters, yelling at each other for blown up internet pixels. I imagine their mothers hate themselves for bringing such pointuless beings to this world.
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-07-22 03:20:00 UTC
Hmmmmm............... I'm going to START an NPC corp......... 11% for doing nothing...............Big smile

2 Account (1 person) corp and no silly WD yet........What?
Chav Queen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-07-22 08:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Chav Queen
It could be that atleast part of the problem is its simply to easy to make a corp.
New players have no idea what sort of corp they are joining and making a corp that can not protect its new players or at least train them in the art of staying alive during war decks is extreamly unfair on the new players.

The most important step for a new player in EVE is joining his or her first corp. This is what makes or brakes that new player.
If you end up in a decent fun corp that knows how to deal with war ect your going to stay around. If you end up in corp that cannot look after itself or its members then yes they may well leave for good.

There are so so many ways to have fun with people who wardec your corp without even having to fight them. It involves getting in a shuttle and going off exploring the rest of eve for a while.
If your clever you can all jump into frigs and all go and sit in your local most pirate infested low sec system and see if they have the balls to come after you there.

Do you supply your members with instant undock bookmarks ect so they can undock when the station is camped?

DO YOU NOT REALISE BY MAKING YOUR OWN CORP YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR NEW MEMBERS WELFARE AND ITS DOWN TOO YOU TO MAKE THEIR GAMING EXPERIANCE FUN !

Sorry for caps but ohnestly I feel for new players who end up in usless corps.
I do not condone greifing noobs, its some thing I would never do, but buy taking them out of the NPC corp and putting them in your corp you are the one who has removed their protection so you better dam well provide some of your own.
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