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Pay to win

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Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#841 - 2012-07-21 21:02:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mechael wrote:
There are so many things wrong with what you're saying here I don't even know where to begin.
Just explain how paying and ending up on the same level as those who don't means you're paying to win.

Oh, and the advantages of alts and PLEX can be had just fine without paying for it.


Tell me how alts and PLEX can exist without someone paying real money for them?

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#842 - 2012-07-21 21:03:05 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
Tippia wrote:

Oh, and the advantages of alts and PLEX can be had just fine without paying for it.



Which is wrong, since the issue is far more complex than P2W.

But then again, it's very understandable why people think so
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#843 - 2012-07-21 21:04:01 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:



How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input?


It does if you need to keep an eye on where the enemy is and what they are doing. I wonder if this is why SoCo fleet had such horrible intel.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#844 - 2012-07-21 21:04:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mechael
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:



Except the part where they get more of said advantage over you by spending real cash. No matter how much ISK you are making through solely in-game means, you could be making more if you bought PLEX in addition to it. And that's not even getting into how useful alts are for making in-game money. Alts which must be paid for, by someone, with real money. Alts which alter the balance of the game.


Alts which I have without spending any extra RL cash.


Someone did. And someone, almost always at least two people, benefited from doing it. Again ... benefiting in-game from someone spending real money on the game.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#845 - 2012-07-21 21:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
baltec1 wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:

How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input?


It does if you need to keep an eye on where the enemy is and what they are doing. I wonder if this is why SoCo fleet had such horrible intel.


We are talking about static scouts. "Eyes" in 1337-D1KS, which do not require input, but are here just to watch for local spikes and fleet movement through said system.
Any corp worth its salt has several "eyes" around, which just stay there as a zero-input requiring intel source.


Of course, you need mobile alts, actually played. But you know all that, and just play dumb.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#846 - 2012-07-21 21:06:17 UTC
Mechael wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:


They were bought and paid for with real money. There is no way to get them into the game without someone paying real money.

And even if you could get them into the game solely via in-game means, the fact remains that you could also get them by paying for them. And any advantage that you can pay for with real money is a pay to win mechanic.


I dont have to spend a penny, which means that they are getting exactly zero advantage over me by spending real cash.


Except the part where they get more of said advantage over you by spending real cash. No matter how much ISK you are making through solely in-game means, you could be making more if you bought PLEX in addition to it. And that's not even getting into how useful alts are for making in-game money. Alts which must be paid for, by someone, with real money. Alts which alter the balance of the game.


Everything in the game requires payment to get, at a minimum you must pay your subscription fee (in ISK or Cash) your definition of pay to win in nonsensical.

By your definition there isn't a game out there that is NOT pay to win.

Surely you are not being this obtuse on purpose. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#847 - 2012-07-21 21:07:21 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input?
If you want to scout properly, yes. If you don't want to miss things, it can also be a bit more involved than having a second client open.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#848 - 2012-07-21 21:07:51 UTC
Mechael wrote:


Someone did. And someone, almost always at least two people, benefited from doing it. Again ... benefiting in-game from someone spending real money on the game.


But I didnt. Doesnt matter if someone spent the cash the fact is that I spent nothing and got exactly the same thing as the people who did.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#849 - 2012-07-21 21:08:01 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:

How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input?


It does if you need to keep an eye on where the enemy is and what they are doing. I wonder if this is why SoCo fleet had such horrible intel.


We are talking about static scouts. "Eyes" in 1337-D1KS, which do not require input, but are here just to watch for local spikes and fleet movement through said system.
Any corp worth its salt has several "eyes" around, which just stay there as a zero-input requiring intel source.


Of course, you need mobile alts, actually played. But you know all that, and just play dumb.


And if you feel it is an advantage you can get it without paying a penny.

Round and round we go.... again.... Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#850 - 2012-07-21 21:10:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
This thread is now about how every video game on the market is pay to win, because at some point you have to pay something to play (whether in game or out of game)... and paying that fee is the only way to win because if you can't play you can't win.

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#851 - 2012-07-21 21:11:51 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:


They were bought and paid for with real money. There is no way to get them into the game without someone paying real money.

And even if you could get them into the game solely via in-game means, the fact remains that you could also get them by paying for them. And any advantage that you can pay for with real money is a pay to win mechanic.


I dont have to spend a penny, which means that they are getting exactly zero advantage over me by spending real cash.


Except the part where they get more of said advantage over you by spending real cash. No matter how much ISK you are making through solely in-game means, you could be making more if you bought PLEX in addition to it. And that's not even getting into how useful alts are for making in-game money. Alts which must be paid for, by someone, with real money. Alts which alter the balance of the game.


Everything in the game requires payment to get, at a minimum you must pay your subscription fee (in ISK or Cash) your definition of pay to win in nonsensical.

By your definition there isn't a game out there that is NOT pay to win.

Surely you are not being this obtuse on purpose. Smile


That's the admittance fee, which while being a form of paying to win (obviously, as you have to pay in order to be able to do anything at all in the game, right? And the devs can't make the game for free ... unless they're making Dwarf Fortress or something,) it is currently the only acceptable form of paying to win. Anything above and beyond that is where I draw the line, really. And believe me, if there were a better game than EVE out there, I wouldn't be here.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#852 - 2012-07-21 21:11:59 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:

How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input?


It does if you need to keep an eye on where the enemy is and what they are doing. I wonder if this is why SoCo fleet had such horrible intel.


We are talking about static scouts. "Eyes" in 1337-D1KS, which do not require input, but are here just to watch for local spikes and fleet movement through said system.
Any corp worth its salt has several "eyes" around, which just stay there as a zero-input requiring intel source.


Of course, you need mobile alts, actually played. But you know all that, and just play dumb.


99% of intel that flows into the intel channels of 0.0 does not come from afk alts but from nullbears doing their things. AFK alts are useless as they provide no intel on shiptypes, direction, and are prone to miss a lot of targets.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#853 - 2012-07-21 21:12:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input?
If you want to scout properly, yes. If you don't want to miss things, it can also be a bit more involved than having a second client open.



We are talking about static scouts. "Eyes" in 1337-D1KS, which do not require input, but are here just to watch for local spikes and fleet movement through said system.
Any corp worth its salt has several "eyes" around, which just stay in key systems as a zero-input requiring intel source. A good way to proceed is to have corp leaders or officers each have one additional account with one of such "eyes" on it.
The login info can be shared, since those accounts only contain static scouts, very little risk involved. When some officers aren't online, their alt scout can be used by other officers.


Of course, you need mobile alts, actually played. Those are different, since they do require input.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#854 - 2012-07-21 21:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mechael wrote:
And the devs can't make the game for free
Sure they can. There are quite a few F2P games out there, and they're becoming increasingly popular. More and more of them are also not P2W in spite of being F2P.

EpicFailTroll wrote:
We are talking about static scouts.
…which, if you want to scout properly, and don't want to miss things, will be a bit more involved than having a second client open. Hands-off scouts are spectacularly inefficient.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#855 - 2012-07-21 21:14:47 UTC
Mechael wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:


They were bought and paid for with real money. There is no way to get them into the game without someone paying real money.

And even if you could get them into the game solely via in-game means, the fact remains that you could also get them by paying for them. And any advantage that you can pay for with real money is a pay to win mechanic.


I dont have to spend a penny, which means that they are getting exactly zero advantage over me by spending real cash.


Except the part where they get more of said advantage over you by spending real cash. No matter how much ISK you are making through solely in-game means, you could be making more if you bought PLEX in addition to it. And that's not even getting into how useful alts are for making in-game money. Alts which must be paid for, by someone, with real money. Alts which alter the balance of the game.


Everything in the game requires payment to get, at a minimum you must pay your subscription fee (in ISK or Cash) your definition of pay to win in nonsensical.

By your definition there isn't a game out there that is NOT pay to win.

Surely you are not being this obtuse on purpose. Smile


That's the admittance fee, which while being a form of paying to win (obviously, as you have to pay in order to be able to do anything at all in the game, right? And the devs can't make the game for free ... unless they're making Dwarf Fortress or something,) it is currently the only acceptable form of paying to win. Anything above and beyond that is where I draw the line, really. And believe me, if there were a better game than EVE out there, I wouldn't be here.


This gets better and better. Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#856 - 2012-07-21 21:14:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mechael wrote:
And the devs can't make the game for free
Sure they can. There are quite a few F2P games out there, and they're becoming increasingly popular. More and more of them are also not P2W in spite of being F2P.


For free as in no charge to anyone at all ever for anything. Totally 100% free to all. But you knew that.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#857 - 2012-07-21 21:16:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

99% of intel that flows into the intel channels of 0.0 does not come from afk alts but from nullbears doing their things. AFK alts are useless as they provide no intel on shiptypes, direction, and are prone to miss a lot of targets.


And that's why every corp worth its salt uses quite a few of them, cloaked at key gates from a distance. They thus provide shiptypes, direction, and are only prone to miss targets if you fail to switch to them when seeing or hearing stuff happening on their client.

Sometimes I think I should really use alts, it seems I've got a better clue than most people.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#858 - 2012-07-21 21:17:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mechael wrote:
For free as in no charge to anyone at all ever for anything.
For free as in “no admittance charge”, which is what you were talking about.

EpicFailTroll wrote:
Sometimes I think I should really use alts, it seems I've got a better clue than most people.
You really should, so you get to understand why they don't work the way you think they do.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#859 - 2012-07-21 21:18:50 UTC
So let me get this straight.

You're saying that if I pay for another account with ISK, it is pay to win because because some nameless stranger somewhere at some point spent money to purchase the PLEX I used?

In fact, this stranger just paid for me to win.

Really?

REALLY!!?!

At what point did that begin to actually make sense to you?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#860 - 2012-07-21 21:19:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mechael wrote:
For free as in no charge to anyone at all ever for anything.
For free as in “no admittance charge”, which is what you were talking about.


Negative. I was talking about the admittance charge in relation to the fact that an admittance fee is a form of paying real money to alter the balance of the game. I mentioned that it is acceptable because the devs can't really be expected to make the game 100% free to all. At some point, unless your game studio is working on charity, real money must affect game balance.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.