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Pay to win

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Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#821 - 2012-07-21 20:45:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Payment is never required.
Dingdingdingding!

Thus, no P2W.


By that logic, there is no such thing as P2W ever, because no one can ever be forced to pay against their will. In any game, not just EVE.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#822 - 2012-07-21 20:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mechael wrote:
Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible.
…and what you have been pointing out is not something that is unique to paying. It's an advantage anyone can have. Thus no P2W.

Quote:
By that logic, there is no such thing as P2W ever
Not in EVE, no. In other games there are, because there are things you can pay for that non-payers can never have.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#823 - 2012-07-21 20:48:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible.
…and what you have been pointing out is not something that is unique to paying. It's an advantage anyone can have. Thus no P2W.


If an advantage can be paid for with real money, regardless of whether or not it can be obtained in any other way, then that is a pay to win mechanic.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#824 - 2012-07-21 20:48:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible.
…and what you have been pointing out is not something that is unique to paying. It's an advantage anyone can have. Thus no P2W.

Quote:
By that logic, there is no such thing as P2W ever
Not in EVE, no. In other games there are, because there are things you can pay for that non-payers can never have.


But you don't have to pay for them. Just like you don't have to pay for them in EVE, or anywhere else.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#825 - 2012-07-21 20:48:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
But they don't.
…and thus we arrive at option 4: get a better corp. Because yes, they do.


Why so strawman? The case studied is the solo, alt-less player

In the case of corps, static scouts and offgrid boosters are invariably afk alts. Why don't players actively fulfill those roles? because they require no input, it's much easier to use an alt and have another ongrid combat pilot;


Tippia wrote:
Quote:
Since he's solo
…by choice it's not a problem to begin with. He still has plenty of options available to him, but he chooses not to use them. So all you're doing is comparing someone who choses to make use of advantages and someone who doesn't. This tells us nothing about alts or about P2W. It's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.


I'm comparing solo players who don't use alts, vs. those who do. And as proven in the link, no options are there. This tells us everything, or almost, about alts and P2W.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#826 - 2012-07-21 20:49:45 UTC
Mechael wrote:


Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible. Anyone can spend real life money to tip the balance of the game in their favor via PLEX, via Alts, which are both inarguabley advantageous in that the provide you with the means to do stuff. Just like any other resource. You get a thing, in the game, for real money.


Name the in game things that I cannot get without paying real cash for.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#827 - 2012-07-21 20:51:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Tippia wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
But you cannot realistically ask this of other people.
You can, and people do. They may also use alts, but that's just another option. It's not the only alternative.


But they don't. Static alts and tower sitting offgrid booster are pure afk characters, no input required. You cannot ask of a player controlling a single character to do this, because he won't.



Gonna point out that most of the fleets I have taken part in do indeed have people with these rolls.


Static alts, not mobile. In my experience of nullsec or wh corps, I have never seen any instance of alts not being used as "eyes", and tower sitting offgrid boosters.

Why shouldn't people use them so, since it requires zero input
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#828 - 2012-07-21 20:51:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:


Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible. Anyone can spend real life money to tip the balance of the game in their favor via PLEX, via Alts, which are both inarguabley advantageous in that the provide you with the means to do stuff. Just like any other resource. You get a thing, in the game, for real money.


Name the in game things that I cannot get without paying real cash for.


Alts. PLEXes (and by proxy, Aurum.) These are things that must be purchased with real money, whether you're doing the purchasing or someone else is. Who does the paying is irrelevant. The relevant thing is that they are advantages that must be paid for with real money.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#829 - 2012-07-21 20:52:38 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:

In the case of corps, static scouts are invariably afk alts.




Thats about as usefull to a fleet as hulk in a POS bash.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#830 - 2012-07-21 20:53:23 UTC
Mechael wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:


Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible. Anyone can spend real life money to tip the balance of the game in their favor via PLEX, via Alts, which are both inarguabley advantageous in that the provide you with the means to do stuff. Just like any other resource. You get a thing, in the game, for real money.


Name the in game things that I cannot get without paying real cash for.


Alts. PLEXes (and by proxy, Aurum.) These are things that must be purchased with real money, whether you're doing the purchasing or someone else is. Who does the paying is irrelevant. The relevant thing is that they are advantages that must be paid for with real money.


I can get them with isk.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#831 - 2012-07-21 20:55:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:


Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible. Anyone can spend real life money to tip the balance of the game in their favor via PLEX, via Alts, which are both inarguabley advantageous in that the provide you with the means to do stuff. Just like any other resource. You get a thing, in the game, for real money.


Name the in game things that I cannot get without paying real cash for.


Alts. PLEXes (and by proxy, Aurum.) These are things that must be purchased with real money, whether you're doing the purchasing or someone else is. Who does the paying is irrelevant. The relevant thing is that they are advantages that must be paid for with real money.


I can get them with isk.


They were bought and paid for with real money. There is no way to get them into the game without someone paying real money.

And even if you could get them into the game solely via in-game means, the fact remains that you could also get them by paying for them. And any advantage that you can pay for with real money is a pay to win mechanic.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#832 - 2012-07-21 20:55:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:

In the case of corps, static scouts are invariably afk alts.


Thats about as usefull to a fleet as hulk in a POS bash.


Then why every corp has "eyes", as they call them?

Why do they use alts particularly trained (cloak) for this task, since non-afk players could do it better?

Couldn't they save on isk or fees thus?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#833 - 2012-07-21 20:55:38 UTC
Mechael wrote:
If an advantage can be paid for with real money, regardless of whether or not it can be obtained in any other way, then that is a pay to win mechanic.
No. If you must pay (not just “can”) to get the advantage, it's P2W.

If you don't have to pay, then you're not buying any win whatsoever when you do pay. After all, the supposed advantage you're buying will be completely counteracted by the advantage others have obtained without expending an iota of real currency. End result: no win for your pay, no P2W.

Again, of the two teams I mentioned, which one has paid? Which one will win?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#834 - 2012-07-21 20:56:56 UTC
Mechael wrote:


They were bought and paid for with real money. There is no way to get them into the game without someone paying real money.

And even if you could get them into the game solely via in-game means, the fact remains that you could also get them by paying for them. And any advantage that you can pay for with real money is a pay to win mechanic.


I dont have to spend a penny, which means that they are getting exactly zero advantage over me by spending real cash.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#835 - 2012-07-21 20:57:54 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:

In the case of corps, static scouts are invariably afk alts.


Thats about as usefull to a fleet as hulk in a POS bash.


Then why every corp has "eyes", as they call them?

Why do they use alts particularly trained (cloak) for this task, since non-afk players could do it better?

Couldn't they save on isk or fees thus?


Tell me, how to these AFK alt scouts provide intell if they are AFK?
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#836 - 2012-07-21 20:59:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mechael wrote:
If an advantage can be paid for with real money, regardless of whether or not it can be obtained in any other way, then that is a pay to win mechanic.
No. If you must pay (not just “can”) to get the advantage, it's P2W.

If you don't have to pay, then you're not buying any win whatsoever when you do pay. After all, the supposed advantage you're buying will be completely counteracted by the advantage others have obtained without expending an iota of real currency. End result: no win for your pay, no P2W.

Again, of the two teams I mentioned, which one has paid? Which one will win?


There are so many things wrong with what you're saying here I don't even know where to begin.

Of the teams you mentioned, the one who is supplementing their income via PLEX will eventually win due to having the ability to quickly and easily replace losses.

The advantages of Alts and PLEX cannot be purchased without real money. Whether you've done the purchasing or someone else has, the fact remains that real money has been spent to alter the balance of the game.

Nobody ever has to pay for anything, therefore nothing ever anywhere, inside of EVE or outside of EVE, can ever be pay to win by your definition. And again, the advantage cannot be obtained without spending real currency anyway, for patently obvious reasons.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#837 - 2012-07-21 21:00:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mechael wrote:


They were bought and paid for with real money. There is no way to get them into the game without someone paying real money.

And even if you could get them into the game solely via in-game means, the fact remains that you could also get them by paying for them. And any advantage that you can pay for with real money is a pay to win mechanic.


I dont have to spend a penny, which means that they are getting exactly zero advantage over me by spending real cash.


Except the part where they get more of said advantage over you by spending real cash. No matter how much ISK you are making through solely in-game means, you could be making more if you bought PLEX in addition to it. And that's not even getting into how useful alts are for making in-game money. Alts which must be paid for, by someone, with real money. Alts which alter the balance of the game.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#838 - 2012-07-21 21:01:13 UTC
Mechael wrote:
There are so many things wrong with what you're saying here I don't even know where to begin.
Just explain how paying and ending up on the same level as those who don't means you're paying to win.

Oh, and the advantages of alts and PLEX can be had just fine without paying for it.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#839 - 2012-07-21 21:01:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:

In the case of corps, static scouts are invariably afk alts.


Thats about as usefull to a fleet as hulk in a POS bash.


Then why every corp has "eyes", as they call them?

Why do they use alts particularly trained (cloak) for this task, since non-afk players could do it better?

Couldn't they save on isk or fees thus?


Tell me, how to these AFK alt scouts provide intell if they are AFK?



How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#840 - 2012-07-21 21:02:30 UTC
Mechael wrote:



Except the part where they get more of said advantage over you by spending real cash. No matter how much ISK you are making through solely in-game means, you could be making more if you bought PLEX in addition to it. And that's not even getting into how useful alts are for making in-game money. Alts which must be paid for, by someone, with real money. Alts which alter the balance of the game.


Alts which I have without spending any extra RL cash.