EVE General Discussion

Just to point out the obvious, pretty much everyone is moving on to more interesting threads (or at least better troll threads)... although Tip may want to humiliate you a bit longer for general purposes.

Try to avoid bumping your own thread to keep it on the main page... it's frowned on and more than a bit sad.

Later.

…such as? Please list them. Please provide examples of advantages that can only be had by paying for them.

What you're discussing is having an advantage over not having an advantage. That has nothing to do with alts or P2W. It is completely off-topic. It's also a meaningless platitude and isn't even a problem to begin with.

…but don't provide any advantage that cannot be had in some other way.

It's not the "making the game easier" part that's wrong. It's the "making the game easier for real money" part that's wrong. You know, pay to win. Spending real money for an advantage in the game. RMT. Microtransactions. Etc. It's that element that allows these sorts of games to be free to play. It's also that element that causes a huge quality nosedive.

It really is that simple.

Too bad that what he said was entirely incorrect.

Entirely possible. Link?

It's not wrong at all. You spend money ... you get stuff in game that helps you out. That's really as simple as it is.

And nah, I'm not gonna be assed to go dig it up. I was curious why you hadn't thrown out the, "but you can do all that with other players, too!" argument at it already (which you really can't.) Players do not equal alts (or alternate accounts, to satisfy Ranger1's pet peeve.) They provide a very different set of advantages and disadvantages than friends do. I won't bother digging up what I already wrote, though, as I'm fairly certain the reply will just be the same old canned response that apparently springs from a lack of observation skills.

If you refuse to see what's patently obvious, I can't help you and there's no point talking about it anymore. Of course, you're likely thinking the same thing about me. Either way, it has absolutely no bearing on whether or not alts are a p2w mechanic, because a p2w mechanic really is as simple as getting something of value in-game for real money.

Ok.

1. You can do these using other people just fine. Whether you choose to or not is a different matter. It is not something that can only be done with alts. For money, there are other options than L4s that requires less activity, so you don't need alts for that either. You might need alts for L4s specifically, but the goal is the ISK, not the missions, and you can get the ISK through other means (if the L4s were the goal, then you'd do them with your main).

2 and 3. These are invalid entries. You are not describing tasks that can only be done with alts. You are just referring back to the previous list.

4. This is also an invalid entry. You are listing new mechanics, not tasks that can only be done with an alt.

So that leaves a single point, which does not satisfy the requirement: alts are not required for any of those tasks.

…you're back to comparing option 1 with option 2 and ignoring option 3. You're describing a choice not to get advantages to the choice of doing so. Again, this has nothing to do with alts — alts could be substituted for any of the other options without altering the issue.

See above. Nothing of what's listed is limited to being done with alts.

Paying provides an advantage. How can you not see that? I pay the man ... I get stuff in game. Pay ... advantage. Simple.

Whether it's something unique or not is totally besides the point. The point is that real world money is being used to alter the balance of the game.

And yet paying still does provide an advantage. Now all of a sudden part of the balancing equation includes people spending real money as a means of tipping the scales in their favor. Whether it's a unique advantage or not, it's still an advantage.

OMG there is so much stupid in this thread.

No Plex are not and never have been PTW. Pay to win mean specifically to spend Real life money to have the game maker spawn **** into existence that would exist otherwise.

Everything involved in the Plex system (well except for Arum which is why we had a massive riot last yer) is generated in game via game mechanics. If you buy a plex it doesn't automatically convert into ISK, You have to sell it to someone who generated their isk using existing game mechanics.


Here's a way to think about it , Imaging you have a buddy who plays EVE. He doesn't have a lot of money but he does have a lot of free time while you may have plenty of money but you lack free time, So you and your buddy come to an arrangement where You pay for his account while he gives you a portion of the isk he earns while you are at work so that when you are able to get online you don't have to spend your limited time grinding isk.

Plex just abstracts that so that you can reach such an arrangement with complete strangers.

Another important difference between P2W and the plex system is their purpose in existence. Plex was introduced originally to combat the problem of 3rd party RMT while P2W is implemented specifically to generate additional revenue for the company, Consider the difference between the plex for isk system and the Plex for Aurum systems.

In the case of a plex for isk, Until such time as someone applies the time in that plex to an account that plex actually represents a liability on CCP's balance book. Because eventually that plex will be used by someone to pay their subscription fee for a month. Their price is also determined by the supply and demand. Notice that in no part of the process of trading for Plex does anyone bypass the in game mechanics for generating isk or acquiring the items said isk can buy.

Contast this with the Plex for Aurum system where if you convert a plex to Aurum CCP does magic an item into existence (Aurum) as well as all the items in the form of our character customization (outfits and monocles)

See the difference? The normal mechanics of the game are not bypassed by the plex system.

Character sales work the same. If you decide you want to buy a Titan pilot you can't just spec one out and have one poof into existence you have to find one that someone spent the time training and hope that it matches your specifications. If you want an Avatar pilot but the only thing for sale is a Erubus pilot you are **** out of luck.

The reason Plex is not Pay to Win is because everything involved in the transaction are things acquirable via normal game play that is available to all subscribers evenly. This is unlike Freemium games such are WOT where the expenditure of real life cash buys objects and abilities that can not be obtained via normal game play.

Plex is also limited by the in-game market, If that theoretical rich kid decided to drop 100 grand on plex to outfit his alliance the very act of doing so would reduce the isk value of those plex as the demand for plex wouldn't have changed while there would then be a surplus of supply.

And no having alts is not pay to win either whether they are spies or boosters or any other purpose because they don't represent something that can only be purchased with RL cash, because anything that can be done by an alt is something that could be accomplished by a another player.