EVE General Discussion

Way off base, there. Alts are just you. With a second character that you can train up and play in a separate window. That's about it. They aren't friends, they aren't drones, they aren't bots, and they certainly aren't good for EVE either. What they are is a form of giving CCP money for an advantage. Whether you give CCP the money, or you give someone ISK and THEY give CCP the money is totally irrelevant.

Can you not argue the same going up against 3 players?

It didn't used to be. Back in a time before PLEX. Sure, alts were still a problem, but in many ways it was a very different game back then.

Of course, I could just be looking back at the "good old days" with rose tinted glasses.

And made so much easier by buying PLEXes and alts with real money. While you did list all of the reasons why, despite the F2P/P2W elements (and all of the other flaws which are too many to list here,) EVE is still by far the best MMO (possibly the best game overall) out there today, you glossed over the notion that it is suffering from a sickness. Several sicknesses, really, but only the F2P/P2W disease is relevant to this thread. Fast travel, underwater physics, faucet/sink economy, etc can all be covered elsewhere.

The ailments that it suffers from are pretty bad, though. Still ... it is the best one out there, and easily at that.

In terms of what benefits they can provide, yes… except that alts are much much less effective.

I see people are still getting confused between alts and extra accounts.

I also see that no one can name an advantage that can be gained with cash that can't also be gained with ISK or time.

Children arguing that EVE should operate under that same simple, safe, and "fair" rules that lesser games do... somewhat like arguing that a sport played at the deeper professional level should be forced to be played the same way as it's grade school equivalent.

It's a big, complex game where there are several ways to gain an advantage, and many more to lose that advantage. As in many other games, paying for extra accounts "can" work to your advantage in some ways (time reduction, or reduced need for teamwork). The thing to realize is that in those other games you don't have the option to level the playing field easily through in game means. In EVE you do.

You should also realize that the trolls that started this thread likely did so because their main characters are currently outnumbered in a war situation, and are seeking to focus the EVE community on multiple accounts in hopes of stirring up some outrage and perhaps get a change that they (falsely) believe may help their situation.

This is all fine actually, as this is one of those deeper levels mentioned above. Just realize you ARE being manipulated and gamed even on the forums... and it's certainly not the first time.

Welcome to EVE.

Yes, because that person can give the task at hand his full attention, whereas using an alt means you're now giving both the alt and the main less attention than they need.

Alts in active combat will quite happily fold to much lower numbers and will definitely fold to equal numbers.

So you're still adamant on ignoring the third option? Anyway, the one without alts could still quite easily win, but that's not all that important.

The relevant question is whether, in a combat situation where both side have equal numbers, will the side where those numbers are made up of alts have an advantage over the side where those numbers aren't… and the answer is that the alt-based side will get (c)reamed.

…and if done actively, they are fare more efficient that if relegated to a background task.

The option of obtaining the same advantage (numbers) through other means. And again, it's not even certain that doing so is all that needed to begin with.

We've already established that there are no advantages in the game that can only be had by paying for them, so you can stop making up scenarios where those advantages are denied one group or the other because they don't prove anything except that not having an advantage is disadvantageous compared to having that advantage.

Incorrect. The uninformed dribble you keep repeating is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether or not alts provide an advantage that can't otherwise be obtained. As everyone knows, they don't. This is shown by the simple fact that, given equal numbers, the side using alts will lose. Horribly.

More efficient as in more efficient. Things get done faster, with more precision, and with more control. There is no need to deprive the gang of active on-grid pilots to do this.

…which still doesn't remove the option of having equal numbers on the field, thus gaining the same advantage as the alter (viz. numbers), at which point the pay-to-lose side will… well… lose.

Yes we have. You agreed to it, when asked. It's too late for back-pedalling now. If you had objections or proof otherwise, you should have presented it, but you were utterly and completely unable to provide anything of the kind.

How is the EVE community so against 'paying to win' gameplay and yet alts are fine?

Part 2, by EFT

That's because EvE, including the use of alts, is F2P.

A vocal portion of the playerbase shoots down arguments stating that alts are a form of P2W, by saying that anybody who's half-decent at this game can play it without using real money at all. Not only for a main account, but for the alts accounts, who provide convenience that is very much mandatory in two main situations: the solo player, and the corp officer, for reasons already mentioned there. Since anybody, whatever their situation, can fund alts without any difficulty, according to those people, it can really be said that EvE, and the alts usage, are F2P. Just like League of Legends is. You don't have to pay for runes, you can merely play smart, win more IP, and get them just as a paying player would.

Now, common sense would tingle at such an affirmation, but it's worth developing as it provides very valuable insight on why such people are so adamantly against the notion that "why is the EVE community is so against 'paying to win' gameplay, yet alts are fine?". The recurring argument is that anybody with a good grasp on the game can make enough isk to fund multilple alts. This implies that anybody who funds alts through RL money is indeed a pubbie scrub, and a very bad player. Just as in a F2P, where the player using microtransactions is looked down upon by the playerbase that does not invest RL money in the game, and takes pride in doing so, showing the same level of ingame success without having to pay for advantages. Not investing money leads to a self-evaluation as "more skilled", than a paying player.

The paying player has then no grounds to state that alts are a form of P2W, because he simply is too bad at the game to play it for free and invest isk in alts.

There is an very evident pride amongst those players stating thats alts aren't P2W, since anybody can fund them with isk (i.e. EvE, even with alts, is F2P). They have reached a point where the game basically pays for itself, through passive isk income. Just because they are "good", the game is free. This is akin to girls on online dating sites who think that those sites are free, just because they are girls having free access to it, -while men are in fact paying for their access, through their own personal subscription fees-.


But let's take their assumption for granted, that they're playing for free because they're good at the game, and that people who whine that alts are a form of P2W are just too bad to do it themselves. This poses at first no problem, just as extra credits due to good score, or extra ball because of good skills don't pose any.
Yet, in this paradigm, alts are mandatory: everybody can have them (they're free for good players), so not having them is unduly restricting game options. And since they get the ball of isk rolling, allowing for various passive isk income, or safe active isk gathering, not having them hampers isk gathering, which would hamper playing for free. It's not a choice to have or not have them, it's a given that everybody uses them.

This is where we go outside ingame considerations, and have to assess metagaming issues. If you're half a decent player, EvE will become F2P, and you will use alts (see above). The ability to successfully fund them is not a matter of RL money and P2W, as cynics argue, but really a matter of personal ability, even though they are purely metagame-related.This is where the scope of the game leaves ingame boundaries, and everything becomes much more complicated.