These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Pay to win

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#581 - 2012-07-20 23:57:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
Hi guys, have we reached a conclusion yet?
We can fairly safely conclude that EFT has trouble showing any kind of advantage that you can only get by paying for it.


Alas
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#582 - 2012-07-21 00:00:49 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
I don't have that problem - go create a PLEX with ISK. P
…and the advantage of “creating” a PLEX is…?

EpicFailTroll wrote:

Alas
…which doesn't demonstrate any kind of advantage that you can have only by paying for it. Alas indeed, but not for me.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#583 - 2012-07-21 00:03:45 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Tippia wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
I don't have that problem - go create a PLEX with ISK. P
…and the advantage of “creating” a PLEX is…?


1.) The very act of creating the PLEX is something the $$$-wealthy person can do that you cannot do.
2.) It makes you work for him.
3.) If he doesn't create a PLEX, you're out. Your "EVE is not P2W" campaign on this forum can only go on because someone rich allows you to continue.


Feel free to disregard this reality, of course.

EDIT: By "you" I don't actually mean you - I don't know if you pay via PLEX or real cash, I don't want to know and I don't care. "You" is merely a hypothetical Tippia that plays with PLEX.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#584 - 2012-07-21 00:06:08 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
1.) The very act of creating the PLEX is something the $$$-wealthy person can do that you cannot do.
2.) It makes you work for him.
3.) If he doesn't create a PLEX, you're out. Your "EVE is not P2W" campaign on this forum can only go on because someone rich allows you to continue.
…and the advantage you gain for “creating” a PLEX is…?
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#585 - 2012-07-21 00:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
Tippia wrote:

EpicFailTroll wrote:

Alas
…which doesn't demonstrate any kind of advantage that you can have only by paying for it. Alas indeed, but not for me.


It demonstrates -quite masterfully if I may say so-, that the solo player (as well as corp leaders, as has been stated later) are forced into using alts, and are at an absolute disadvantage if they do not.

Since alts are not an ingame resource, it's not a choice of whether to fit a cloak or not, the advantage they provide is not accessible ingame for a solo player. And since they cost RL money in the end, they are a form of P2W.

But do keep on pretending that it's not the case, it's amusing, if a little pathetic sometimes.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#586 - 2012-07-21 00:08:55 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Tippia wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
1.) The very act of creating the PLEX is something the $$$-wealthy person can do that you cannot do.
2.) It makes you work for him.
3.) If he doesn't create a PLEX, you're out. Your "EVE is not P2W" campaign on this forum can only go on because someone rich allows you to continue.
…and the advantage you gain for “creating” a PLEX is…?

Hm. I'll try to put that as politely as I can: Anyone can see the advantage. Anyone whose "time" is limited. If you have unlimited time to play Eve, it's hard to convince you that ISK is worth anything.

EDIT: Also, my argumentation has another weakness. If I buy a PLEX and sell it to you for 500m.. are those 500m enough to make me stop feeling dirty for enabling you to continue your "EVE is not P2W" rampage*? What?**

*while I bath in my ISK

**That's all meant purely hypothetically. I don't buy PLEX with real cash. I buy PLEX with ISK. So, if whoever sold me the PLEX hates my postings he should realize that it's basically completely his fault.


EDIT 2: I already named the biggest advantage anyway. You work for that person. You work for that person. You work for that person. My god. Hiiii this is reality, can Tippia come out to play?

Try to make someone work for you purely with ISK.

The advantages are obvious: PLEX sellers determine whether you are even allowed to play or not. You can have 200 trillion ISK, as long as you have 0 USD and there aren't any PLEX on the market, you are out.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#587 - 2012-07-21 00:15:58 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
Hm. I'll try to put that as politely as I can: Anyone can see the advantage. Anyone whose "time" is limited.
So the advantage is one of saving time, is that what you're trying to say?

That's a player convenience — not an in-game advantage.

Quote:
If you have unlimited time to play Eve, it's hard to convince you that ISK is worth anything.
…or are you trying to say that the advantage is ISK? In that case, no, that's not an advantage you can only get by paying for it.

EpicFailTroll wrote:
It demonstrates -quite masterfully if I may say so-, that the solo player (as well as corp leaders, as has been stated later) are forced into using alts, and are at an absolute disadvantage if they do not.
A solo player isn't at a disadvantage because he's not paying; he's at a disadvantage because he's solo. Again: the advantage (or lack thereof) you're talking about is numbers, not anything to do with payment. The advantage in question can be had without paying for it.

So you have still to demonstrate any kind of advantage that can only be had by paying for it.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#588 - 2012-07-21 00:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Tippia wrote:
saving time [...] is [...] not an in-game


Uh huh. I'll check back in tomorrow. Roll Oh and..

DrSmegma wrote:

The advantages are obvious: PLEX sellers determine whether you are even allowed to play or not. You can have 200 trillion ISK, as long as you have 0 USD and there aren't any PLEX on the market, you are out.


Then you can still be yelling "that's not an ingame advantage" but you'll have to look for a third-party forum for someone to read it there as this one requires an active subscription.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#589 - 2012-07-21 00:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
DrSmegma wrote:
Uh huh. I'll check back in tomorrow.
Please do, and please come back with an actual response.

Quote:
The advantages are obvious: PLEX sellers determine whether you are even allowed to play or not. You can have 200 trillion ISK, as long as you have 0 USD and there aren't any PLEX on the market, you are out.
That's a meta-game (i.e. not in-game) advantage. In fact, what you described makes it impossible to win over the other (non-paying) character in-game. Blink

Oh, and that particular advantage doesn't come from paying — it comes from removing PLEX from the market, something that can be done with pure ISK. The PLEX sellers would actually do better by not paying at all if they want to achieve that goal, since they can then have the same effect without paying for it.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#590 - 2012-07-21 00:26:36 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Tippia wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
Uh huh. I'll check back in tomorrow.
Please do, and please come back with an actual response.

Quote:
The advantages are obvious: PLEX sellers determine whether you are even allowed to play or not. You can have 200 trillion ISK, as long as you have 0 USD and there aren't any PLEX on the market, you are out.
That's a meta-game (i.e. not in-game) advantage. In fact, what you described makes it impossible to win over the other character in-game. Blink


I remember using exactly the same logic in a very similar situation on another game forum. With the difference, I was 16 and I knew I was trolling.

I suppose if your char bio-massed when your subscription runs out it would be different and it wouldn't be meta-game anymore but ingame? But how does your character know if it bio-masses when the sub runs out? Someone call Schrödinger, I found his kitten.

EDIT: If you want to keep denying the sheer existence of the outside world, consider the following. If they stop selling PLEX to you Tippia, Tippia will stay docked forever, or in space forever, unable to move.

At that point, the people who invest $$$ into Eve will be able to do everything while Tippia will be able to do nothing at all. Maybe the advantage is obvious enough this time?

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#591 - 2012-07-21 00:29:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:

[quote=EpicFailTroll]It demonstrates -quite masterfully if I may say so-, that the solo player (as well as corp leaders, as has been stated later) are forced into using alts, and are at an absolute disadvantage if they do not.
A solo player isn't at a disadvantage because he's not paying; he's at a disadvantage because he's solo. Again: the advantage (or lack thereof) you're talking about is numbers, not anything to do with payment. The advantage in question can be had without paying for it.

So you have still to demonstrate any kind of advantage that can only be had by paying for it.


The advantage a solo player funding alts has, cannot be had ingame by another solo player, if he doesn't choose to go into metaplaying and invest into alts. Numbers cannot be had either in the cases studied, because he's solo, etc. Since any way you look at it, RL money creates alts, alts are a form of P2W

So verily yes, he is at a severe disadvantage because he's not investing in alts, which are a very good source of revenue for CCP, who do not wish to implement simple mechanics that would remove the necessity for the solo player to invest in multiple accounts

It's been demonstrated in the post linked times and times again, you just choose to ignore it. Newcomers in this thread can forge their opinion themselves.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#592 - 2012-07-21 00:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
DrSmegma wrote:
I suppose if your char bio-massed when your subscription runs out it would be different and it wouldn't be meta-game anymore but ingame?
Nah, it would still be meta-game — you're still keeping the player from playing the game.

EpicFailTroll wrote:
The advantage a solo player funding alts has, cannot be had ingame by another solo player, if he doesn't choose to go into metaplaying and invest into alts.
…and no matter how you twist and turn and try to deny one side the use of an advantage that is available to him, the simple fact remains: the advantage you're talking about is numbers. This advantage can be had without paying for it. Your scenarios are about one player choosing not to use advantages that are available. This does not mean the advantages don't exist and can't be had.

There are three options, and you are only looking at two of them:
1. Do not get the advantage.
2. Pay to get the advantage.
3. Do something else to get the advantage.

You are consistently only comparing options 1 and 2 — you are ignoring the fact that option 3 is always available.

You have yet to provide an example of an advantage that can only be had if you pay for it. You have yet to provide an example where option 3 simply does not exist.
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#593 - 2012-07-21 00:37:29 UTC
Paying real life money makes my ships fly faster, tank longer and do more DPS. I can also gain in-game knowledge and personal experience with which to win in PVP more often simply by buying PLEX. It also reduces the effect of my enemies EWAR and refuels my POS chain without having to lift a finger. Being able to dress up in fancy clothing also does wonders for my in-game reputation thus allowing me access to the upper tiers of corporations and alliances.

Meanwhile it's impossible to make ISK passively in-game so you have to either grind or cough up some real monies.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#594 - 2012-07-21 00:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Tippia wrote:

There are three options, and you are only looking at two of them:
1. Do not get the advantage.
2. Pay to get the advantage.
3. Do something else to get the advantage.

You are consistently only comparing options 1 and 2 — you are ignoring the fact that option 3 is always available.


As I said, create a PLEX with ISK. "But I can just buy one". But you can't create one. If the rich kids who actually work stop selling PLEX to you, you're out. Because you cannot create a PLEX with ISK. You cannot extend your own pilot's license with ISK unless a $$$ kid comes along to help you.

But go ahead, ignore it, again. I expect nothing else of you. You can't be helped as long as you don't let others help you.

Now come at me with your teenage trolling rhetorics.

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#595 - 2012-07-21 00:50:35 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
As I said, create a PLEX with ISK.
…which offers you no in-game advantage.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#596 - 2012-07-21 00:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Tippia wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
As I said, create a PLEX with ISK.
…which offers you no in-game advantage.


Facepalm...

Without a pilot's license you aren't allowed to pilot your ship. I'd say at that point everyone who is allowed to pilot his ship won't even interrupt his journey to point and laugh at you.

I'd call that quite a disadvantage, but hey, not in Bizarro World, right?

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#597 - 2012-07-21 01:01:19 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
If the rich kids who actually work stop selling PLEX to you, you're out. Because you cannot create a PLEX with ISK. You cannot extend your own pilot's license with ISK unless a $$$ kid comes along to help you.

This is as laughable a concept as those miners that suggest they control New Eden's economy by stockpiling their minerals.

There is always going to be PLEX available on the market. Selling PLEX gives you more ISK, but if you had a brain you can easily make that money in-game and not waste your '$$$', as long as plex can be bought in game and out there is absolutely no advantage .

Good day gentlemen.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#598 - 2012-07-21 01:05:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:

…and no matter how you twist and turn and try to deny one side the use of an advantage that is available to him, the simple fact remains: the advantage you're talking about is numbers. This advantage can be had without paying for it. Your scenarios are about one player choosing not to use advantages that are available. This does not mean the advantages don't exist and can't be had.

There are three options, and you are only looking at two of them:
1. Do not get the advantage.
2. Pay to get the advantage.
3. Do something else to get the advantage.

You are consistently only comparing options 1 and 2 — you are ignoring the fact that option 3 is always available.

You have yet to provide an example of an advantage that can only be had if you pay for it. You have yet to provide an example where option 3 simply does not exist.


The examples are there.

As luck would have it, you have yet to provide a way for the solo player to get the advantage the alts (numbers) provide, when he is unable to have the support of friends ingame, due to unavoidable contingencies such as conflicting schedules, or the stubborn fact nobody wants to perform for others tasks always dumped on alts, such as static scouting or other necessary yet non-interactive stuff.

Not fitting a cloak is an ingame choice. Not investing in alts is a metagaming choice, which results in a severe handicap. Since alts are funded by RL money, any way you look at it, they are a form of P2W, providing excellent service for the solo player, that is unobtainable by many alt-less solo players, as explained right above and in the link.
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#599 - 2012-07-21 01:08:15 UTC
Pay to win sure it is. just pay your plexs i will sell them for you np. so you spend hard working money for some isk. Its your life pal not mine. I spend better my real money. Its not i can not buy plex its just to easy to get isk. But again not many people know that.

Keep it that way.
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#600 - 2012-07-21 01:10:56 UTC
I don't think you know the meaning of the word Solo, but considering your a forum alt I'll stop wasting my time talking to you.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)