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The reason why we don't see many Amarr ships
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Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1 - 2012-07-19 08:49:10 UTC
Since all the commentators have stated something about this but never hit the nail on the head.

The reason why people don't use many Amarr ships is the lack of mid slots.
The exception is, the ones that do have some. (or bring more damage for certain setups)

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wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-07-19 12:41:59 UTC
No

You are bad and you should feel bad.

An oversimplified answer would be: they don't do enough DPS to brawl and they're not fast enough to kite. They fill a middle ground that's hard to take advantage of in the tournament.
Ember Saint
Time-Lost Proto-Drake
#3 - 2012-07-19 16:03:34 UTC
so what you're saying.. is that AT10 is a bit racialist?
NinjaTurtle
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-07-19 20:26:19 UTC
wallenbergaren wrote:
No

You are bad and you should feel bad.

An oversimplified answer would be: they don't do enough DPS to brawl and they're not fast enough to kite. They fill a middle ground that's hard to take advantage of in the tournament.


I think there is something in the midslot idea (think of how ECM heavy the tourny typically is) although your oversimplification is also true.
Allyria Kylari
Blue asteroids
#5 - 2012-07-19 22:23:56 UTC
Ciar Meara wrote:
Since all the commentators have stated something about this but never hit the nail on the head.

The reason why people don't use many Amarr ships is the lack of mid slots.
The exception is, the ones that do have some. (or bring more damage for certain setups)



This is a reason, but by no means the reason.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-07-20 00:23:46 UTC
well also becuase minmatar is popular, and only ammar can't choose damage.

I mean if you're fighting minmatar, and your team lead is ammar, there you go, you deal 0 damage to shields.

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Bacchanalian
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#7 - 2012-07-20 04:20:14 UTC
Lack of midslots
Not agile or fast enough not to brawl, don't brawl well with blasters or even ACs
Lack of midslots
Extreme cap use, further limiting the midslots as well as making the ships excessively countered by the rather popular Bhaalgorn flagships or also fairly popular fielding of Curses as support recons.
Tracking not terribly resilient to TDs, something else that has been very heavily used this tournament.
Lack the drone bays of Gallente ships
Sleipnirs, being some of the most popular ships in the tournament to date, have natively high EM resistances, neutering the real DPS output of Amarr turret boats when they face t2 Minnie.

Add to that the following;
Comparable blaster options often tank better or at least comparably
Blasters generally do more DPS than lasers once you tackle your target, and there are very few cases where you're going to be in Multifrequency/Conflag range but not Antimatter/Void range for more than a few seconds.
Blaster boats tend to be better equipped for fielding drones, which means more utility/redundancy/overall damage from the drone bays on blaster boats.
Blaster boats tend to have an extra midslot (or more than one) over their comparable Amarr variants (Zealot/Deimos being an exception, though the Zealot lacks a drone bay altogether vs the Deimos' 50m3).
Proxay
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#8 - 2012-07-20 05:19:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Proxay
Bacchanalian wrote:
Lack of midslots
Not agile or fast enough not to brawl, don't brawl well with blasters or even ACs
Lack of midslots
Extreme cap use, further limiting the midslots as well as making the ships excessively countered by the rather popular Bhaalgorn flagships or also fairly popular fielding of Curses as support recons.
Tracking not terribly resilient to TDs, something else that has been very heavily used this tournament.
Lack the drone bays of Gallente ships
Sleipnirs, being some of the most popular ships in the tournament to date, have natively high EM resistances, neutering the real DPS output of Amarr turret boats when they face t2 Minnie.

Add to that the following;
Comparable blaster options often tank better or at least comparably
Blasters generally do more DPS than lasers once you tackle your target, and there are very few cases where you're going to be in Multifrequency/Conflag range but not Antimatter/Void range for more than a few seconds.
Blaster boats tend to be better equipped for fielding drones, which means more utility/redundancy/overall damage from the drone bays on blaster boats.
Blaster boats tend to have an extra midslot (or more than one) over their comparable Amarr variants (Zealot/Deimos being an exception, though the Zealot lacks a drone bay altogether vs the Deimos' 50m3).


Though, on the flip side:

Amarr generally have:
A stronger tank
Better tracking
Faster Reloading and Switching of Damage types (faster adaptation of situation with ranges)
Better sensor strength (Compared to Minmatar)
More low slots (More heat sinks)
Armor Missile-Based alternatives that aren't Caldari (Ham Legion / Sacrilege/ Vengeance)
Great Ewar utilities (Nos, Neut, and TD's)

As a further consideration:
They're unexpected in tourney matches, therefore teams may be unprepared for them, whereas Gallente and Minmatar are often expected, so were ECM being used, a rook fielding nothing but Green/Red jammers would not be completely ridiculous against certain teams.

There isn't really a definitive reason why a team won't field Amarr, but at the same time, there are in certain situations, a ship that is better suited to the purpose, than an Amarr ship.

We will see a lot more Amarr ships throughout the tournament. As much as Bhaalgorns are a 'blood raider' ship, they really are Amarr (Sensor Strength, Guns, Bonus) at their core, and with all but 3-4 teams choosing Bhaalgorns as their flagships. We can count on some really strong Amarr-Pure teams.

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Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#9 - 2012-07-20 08:12:35 UTC
I agree with everything said in all of the posts. There are off course many reasons Amarr ships are not chosen and other reasons why they are used in certain setups. I stated the case of the mid slots a bit to straightforward because often, a nuanced approach in the eve-o forums is quite pointless.

But I do stand behind my intended statement though, in the end, looking at Amarr ships, you can get ships that do pretty much the same an Amarr ships does but generally has more mid slots. And those extra mid slots are pretty damn important (even if it's just one). Generally you can fit the things on an Amarr ships that it needs, but you lose allot of flexibility that other ships will grant you.

Ships like the older version of the retribution (it had one midslot, now it finally has two) can't really compete with ships like the Ishkur or let alone the Coercer versus a Sabre, in terms of tournament flexibility. Let me be clear this is not a whine, just an observation, I have flown almost exclusively Amarr ships for years now and I wouldn't want to trade them for anything.

Also I would like to see a low slot Ancillary Shield Booster module for armour ships fueled by Nanite Paste :) .



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Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#10 - 2012-07-20 20:57:25 UTC
I really would like to see more laserboats tbh, but Sleips are just too damn popular. Until someone breaks out counters that consistently smash them, any team considering Amarr hulls will be instantly say "can't break a Sleipnir, next idea?".

The only potential hope I can see if for either a HAM Legion or Sacrilege based team, great resists and utility mids / highs, a small dronebay (better than none), and okay DPS. Problem is they're fatasses and can't maneuver well, meaning you either can't chase anything down or you can't run away from things.

Short HAM range and dependency on a logistics ship are also crippling downsides. Parallel tanking with an ASB and shield logistics is just too powerful for most Amarr teams to overcome (except possibly neut-based setups).

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