Macintosh

I know one of the issues of running eve on a Mac is eve uses DirectX graphics calls and the Macintosh uses OpenGL. The Cider wrapper does translations. But that does not really seem to explain the issue. Maybe someone who knows, or someone at CCP can explain this? Specifically:

The Macintosh hardware is in no way limited to OpenGL. To prove this to yourself, but in bootcamp and run eve. Now DirectX calls control the Graphics Processor Unit directly. Question: Why cannot an application running on the Mac side use DirectX? The hardware can handle it. Why the limitation to OpenGL? Why can the Mac OS not just be bypassed and DirectX calls sent directly to the GPU?

Even if there is no way to do this and the translation must be done, could this not be done before I download the client? That is;

If ( UseOpenGL = true ) then
OpenGL call
else
DirectX call


where the openGL call is exactly the call Cider would have made if it was asked to do the translation. My guess is if even 5% of the graphics calls made by the client included "pre-translated" calls, there would be a marked improvement in fps, assuming the most heavily used calls were translated.

Why cannot a native DirectX driver be part of Cider?

Im still missing something.

DirectX drivers do not have to be written, they already exist. Otherwise no one could use DirectX on any computer with any operating system. Furthermore DirectX drivers that work on a Macintosh already exist, they are loaded whenever you use bootcamp.

Apple already allows DirectX drivers on their hardware. They are loaded on whenever you start bootcamp.

Im not suggesting adding DirectX drivers to OSX. I understand Apple has the right to prevent mucking with their OS. Im suggesting adding them to Cider and bypassing OSX, so the only app that can use them is Eve. Cider already has an odd DirectX driver, it works by first translating the calls to OpenGL. Why not have a better one, one that can use the DirectX call directly?

Sort of, but I still do not see why the driver needs to interact with the OS. Why not use a driver that directly drives the GPU without any consideration of the OS at all?

For example when I first turn on my computer I see the PgP log in screen. That appears before OSX has been loaded. Obviously something is controlling the graphics without the need for OSX. And as I can type stuff in at that point, the UI is still working. Why cannot cider do the same?

Also what about my second method, have OpenGL calls pre-translated and in the code, so Cider does not need to spend time doing the translating?

[quote=Dersen Lowery
There's a small computer-within-a-computer with a very rudimentary interface running the machine at that point. None of the drivers have been loaded, because the OS hasn't been loaded--it's talking directly to hardware. [/quote]

Why could not Cider talk directly to the hardware?

Also, I thought Cider, being a PC emultor, contains some part of the PC OS. Why not have the DX driver interact with that, instead of OSX?

In other words. Why cannot Cider just ignore OSX?

If you could boot into Cider, sure, but there's a better solution: Boot Camp into Windows.

All applications running on modern OS's only know what the OS tells them about the hardware they're running on, and all access to that hardware goes through the OS. Otherwise, for example, OS X and Windows 7 couldn't do the transparent window-over-window compositions or preview windows, or OS X's minimize effect to the dock. Screenshots wouldn't work, and so on. All of that depends on all graphics being rendered through the operating system's graphics layer.

It used to be possible, when 3d accelerators were optional enhancements and people still lusted after VOODOO cards. Now, they're crucial system components.



It contains original code that mimics Windows well enough to fool many Windows applications, including EVE, which is mostly written in platform-independent Python. That includes a library that looks like DirectX, but which is actually a shim that translates DirectX calls into OpenGL.

You can't run a Windows driver, because it expects to sit between the hardware and Windows; but WINE isn't Windows, it just looks kind of like Windows from above.

to put it simply. Direct X is a Microsoft technology. Yes, nvidia/ati/intel graphics cards/ship support both, however it doesn't make sense for Microsoft to license one of their best proprietary software technologies to a competing company (apple)

But Apple is not willing to let anyone give those up. (Neither is Microsoft.) It's a Pandora's box. What I'm trying to tell you is that those are reasons why Apple will simply not let it happen. There's nothing that CCP or the Cider developers can do about that. Apple wants all graphics routed through OS X, and so all graphics are routed through OS X. Same deal on Windows, only with DirectX.

It's frustrating, I know, and it's the main reason why OS X has always lagged seriously behind Windows as a game platform. But there it is.



Because Cider is just an application, so the driver would have to be written for OS X. Applications can't access drivers directly. They have to go through the operating system. Even if it could, somebody would have to write a driver specifically for Cider, because Cider only looks like Windows from the point of view of the application it's wrapped around. It looks like an application to OS X, not an operating system.

Cider is a clever bit of trickery, not an OS.



Cider and CCP couldn't do anything with it, because Cider is an app and EVE is an app, and a driver is a low-level operating system extension subject to tight security protocols and careful testing by both the video card vendor and the operating system vendor. (Buggy or compromised drivers can create massive security holes, or more commonly crash your machine hard.) The operating system sits between the driver and the applications, by design. The more powerful and secure the operating system, the more true this will be. The trend has been away from what you're looking for.

Also, there can only be one driver for hardware at any given time, again by design. If you have one GPU, it will have one driver. If that GPU is in a Mac, that driver will implement OpenGL, because that's the only graphics API that the upper levels of OS X know about, and for that and for political reasons, it's the only API that Apple will allow to be shipped with OS X.

Because Mac OS/Linux Use Open GL as the api layer to interface grapics input and sound . Windows uses Direct x for the same api calls. Why can't you write to the grapics card directly because at the time there is no application written to use Direct to Metal Rendering and function calls to bypass the Low Level API layer that the host operating systems use. Its not as simple as writing one driver you would need to change the way windows/linux./mac osx interface with pc hardware as a whole.

Why cant you use a windows driver in Mac os but need to use boot camp in windows to use it? Because there 2 diffrent operating systems. Same reason that mac os software doesn't work Nativity on windows because the os is incapable of understanding it. The way Mac OS interfaces with the device drivers vs the way windows does are so completely different.

Cyder translates windows calls into function calls that mac os understands. Same way wine Translates function calls. A windows dll atm would not work nativly by itself under linux because it does not know how to interface with it. And Microsoft isn't about to make Direct X multi platform.


FYI Direct X and Open GL DO exactingly the same thing They just speak different languages


To the person that replied above me. The wow client also suports Native Open GL Vs Eve is a native Direct X client

I totally agree... if CCP moved to OpenGL not only would Mac benifit... but it would also make bringback a proper linux version easy...

Also, as a note, OpenGL is not infact behind the times compared to DirectX, its often actually the first to develop features.... OpenGL had tessellation during the DX9 days...

I have heard however that the DX api is a bit easier to use, and ofc... most gaming programmers are much better at using it compared to OpenGL.

We can all hope though! Valve are moving to OpenGL atm, they've just finished test converting their source engine and L4D2 over to OpenGL to release on Ubuntu... CCP, c'mon, follow suit and make a statement! :D