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Guardians
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Saer Aeternus
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-07-18 12:43:28 UTC
A friend and I are looking to start flying Guardians. We have the support skills trained and Logistics 5.

We will be working with fleets of 20 - 40 consisting of Frigates, Cruisers and BC.

How much damage can two Logistics take? while repping eachother.

I was going to start by warping to the fleet at 50 - 70km and try and keep them inbetween us and the enemy.

What advice do you guys have for us?
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
#2 - 2012-07-18 13:30:26 UTC
Just one: practice.

Do it as often as possible. Your theory seems solid so experience is what you need.
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-07-18 19:09:50 UTC
To answer your tankability question, just go to EFT.

If there are only two logis, I STRONGLY recommend using the oneiros instead or having a truckload of remote ECCM dedicated to you guys... cap chaining with two logis in that large a fight is not going to be pretty.
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#4 - 2012-07-19 19:14:20 UTC
I am looking for an answer to this topic as well. It seems like its best to try and keep your combat group between you and the enemy but I was wondering what to do when some enemies get through. In wow if the healer pulled aggro the tactic was to run to the tank. But as this is against people that advice is not so useful.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#5 - 2012-07-19 19:30:19 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:
To answer your tankability question, just go to EFT.

If there are only two logis, I STRONGLY recommend using the oneiros instead or having a truckload of remote ECCM dedicated to you guys... cap chaining with two logis in that large a fight is not going to be pretty.


This is good advice for trying to engage 20-40 people with only 2 Logis. To elaborate, kite tank as hard as you can with 4 LRARs and reasonable cap.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#6 - 2012-07-19 19:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Shizuken wrote:
I am looking for an answer to this topic as well. It seems like its best to try and keep your combat group between you and the enemy but I was wondering what to do when some enemies get through. In wow if the healer pulled aggro the tactic was to run to the tank. But as this is against people that advice is not so useful.


You use teamwork to call out the tackler to the FC, broadcast for reps, and use ECM drones to try and disrupt the tackle. Also, one of the big advantages of a Logi is that you have frig sized sig with HAC+ sized tank. Even BCs can have trouble hitting you if you manually pilot.

-Liang

Ed: I remember tanking a Hype, Domi, Cyclone, Cane, gate guns, and some other mixed trash in my Basi. Of course, it was deadspace, crystals, boosters, fleet boosters, etc... but still. Most of the damage can be mitigated through good piloting. NEVER SIT STILL... EVER.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#7 - 2012-07-19 19:34:53 UTC
With two Guardians at maxed skills: to reduce the cap for remote repairs and maximizing cap transfers.

It is possible. BUT you will have a logistical (in your head logistical) nightmare to keep 20 - 40 ship mates alive. You yourself can only track as many as your skills allow. And your fleet list can only show you 10. So keeping the others alive will literally be only via chat or voice communication.

Good luck. But honestly, grab a few more logis.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#8 - 2012-07-19 19:41:55 UTC
FireT wrote:
With two Guardians at maxed skills: to reduce the cap for remote repairs and maximizing cap transfers.

It is possible. BUT you will have a logistical (in your head logistical) nightmare to keep 20 - 40 ship mates alive. You yourself can only track as many as your skills allow. And your fleet list can only show you 10. So keeping the others alive will literally be only via chat or voice communication.

Good luck. But honestly, grab a few more logis.


Did they remove broadcasts while I wasn't paying attention?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2012-07-19 19:45:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Eternal Error wrote:
To answer your tankability question, just go to EFT.

If there are only two logis, I STRONGLY recommend using the oneiros instead or having a truckload of remote ECCM dedicated to you guys... cap chaining with two logis in that large a fight is not going to be pretty.


This is good advice for trying to engage 20-40 people with only 2 Logis. To elaborate, kite tank as hard as you can with 4 LRARs and reasonable cap.

-Liang


Yeah, I concur with Liang and Eternal, the Oneiros is better suited toward fast moving ships/fleets. The Guardians, need some time to "set up" as it were and rely heavily on the cap transfers between each other to produce the necessary energy for remote repairs. Typical Guardian setups tend to be Buffer tanked, which slows down their agility, aligning speed, and acceleration. In addition, since Logistic ships have a 3.75 AU warp speed versus your frigate gangs' 6 AU warp speed, you will need to warp as a fleet, or else your Guardians will be vulnerable to a fast enemy.

Tip No. 2: Remember that the LRAR's repairs at the END of the cycle, not at the beginning like Shield Transporters do.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-07-19 20:04:18 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
FireT wrote:
With two Guardians at maxed skills: to reduce the cap for remote repairs and maximizing cap transfers.

It is possible. BUT you will have a logistical (in your head logistical) nightmare to keep 20 - 40 ship mates alive. You yourself can only track as many as your skills allow. And your fleet list can only show you 10. So keeping the others alive will literally be only via chat or voice communication.

Good luck. But honestly, grab a few more logis.


Did they remove broadcasts while I wasn't paying attention?

-Liang


Of course they didn't , FireT just missed that you should not keep track on anything else than the other logistic and FC, everything else just should be able to broadcast for reps but I agree there are many who seem to have malfunctioning brains and can't click on the broadcast Roll

brb
chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#11 - 2012-07-19 22:44:21 UTC
Ima leave this here for the braindead people who don't broadcast.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/23703946.jpg
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-07-19 23:36:52 UTC
Saer Aeternus wrote:
How much damage can two Logistics take?


A typical ship (typical being 5 or 6 slot tanks including damage control and buffer modules) tanks between 350 and 450dps per incoming large RR module. Combined with proper management of overheating, transversal, range and signature you can expect to to tank at best ~2000dps per logistics ship.

In the case of Logistics supporting frigates, the biggest threat is volley damage rather than sustained dps, especially when it's armor RR due to the reps only applying at the end of the cycle. Therefore Guardians should pre-lock the most likely primaries, frigates should favour buffer over resists and they should broadcast for repairs as soon as their overview goes yellow.

As for flying, keeping the friendlies between you and the hostiles is a smart choice, but if you are facing opponents that are very mobile and your friendlies have a limited engagement range do not stay too far away from your own fleet. You would risk being bumrushed, tackled and maybe even killed before your fleet could react to protect you.

No sig.
kyrieee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-07-20 02:03:25 UTC
Two rules for fitting Guardians:
1600mm plate
No RCU
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-07-20 13:39:04 UTC
This is the basic guardian fit that i know of...

[Guardian, Guard]
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Kinetic Plating II
Damage Control II

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Regard' Power Projector
Large 'Regard' Power Projector
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

This will tank 1492dps/ 2019 if both OH in a pair not taking into account transversal etc...

No Worries
Armeggeda iscariah
Ganja Labs
Exodus.
#15 - 2012-07-20 19:42:55 UTC
800mm gaurdians are pretty much crap. If your going to take on gangs with 30+ ships you need to go 1600 or your just gonna melt against any competent gang.

I would sugest using this.

[Guardian, Cheap 1600mm Needs +1% PG]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Regard' Power Projector
Large 'Regard' Power Projector
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

It needs a +1% PG implant. Good to practice in this before going into more exspensive fits.


2 Fits i forced my alliance to fly for armor T3 gangs.

[Guardian, Armor T3 Logi 5 Gaurd.]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Federation Navy Armor Thermic Hardener
Federation Navy Armor EM Hardener
Coreli C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Regard' Power Projector
Large 'Regard' Power Projector
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

Or you can run a tiger gaurdian. You Need all level 5 cap skills to run this effectivly. The only thing that will **** you is your fleet letting neut canes or curses fly into you. So you need extreme logi practice to fly it effectivly.

[Guardian, Logi 5 Tiger Gaurd]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
True Sansha Armor Kinetic Hardener
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


Both set-ups can tank above 2k DPS. adding transversal "technicly" helps you tank allot more.

But before you go flying the shineys you need to practice flying logi. ALLOT. hoping into a logi with no experiance = your fleet is gonna die in a fire along with you.


Hail Satan.
Brominder
Ziz Zag Ziggurat
#16 - 2012-07-21 15:11:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Brominder
Obviously the 5 armor, 1 energy setup has 25% greater repping ability than a 4x repper, 2x transfer. Howver, I am still torn on whether this is a good or bad idea due to the enhanced durability of the 4 armor, 2 energy transfer durability when the chain breaks due to pilot death, drop, etc.

Also, Logi Pilots should always have Logi V and Remote Shield/Armor Rep skills to V. While logi IV pilots are possible, they really suck compared to a Logi V in any sort of sustained conflict or alteration of optimal conditions.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-07-21 19:15:15 UTC
Never 800mm plates, never lowslot fitting modules.

No sig.
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-07-21 22:04:52 UTC
Fleet 20 ships - 2 Logi
Fleet 40 ships - 2 Logi? Make it 4 here............
Bibosikus
Air
#19 - 2012-07-22 07:03:09 UTC
FireT wrote:
With two Guardians at maxed skills: to reduce the cap for remote repairs and maximizing cap transfers.

It is possible. BUT you will have a logistical (in your head logistical) nightmare to keep 20 - 40 ship mates alive. You yourself can only track as many as your skills allow. And your fleet list can only show you 10. So keeping the others alive will literally be only via chat or voice communication.

Good luck. But honestly, grab a few more logis.


The Watch List was extended to 15 members in Crucible. Plus you can drag & drop inside the Watch List to arrange your primary targets for RR.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Aamrr
#20 - 2012-07-22 10:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
Armeggeda iscariah wrote:
[Guardian, Logi 5 Tiger Gaurd]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
True Sansha Armor Kinetic Hardener
Corelum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


This setup is a little inefficient. You can get 99% of the reps here without buying the second T2 rig by fitting as follows. Resists are a bit different, but EHP is basically the same. Kinetic is your weak resist, but you get a DC2 which raises all of your resists. Pick your poison.

[Guardian, FiveOne]

Damage Control II
Shadow Serpentis Armor Thermic Hardener
Shadow Serpentis Armor EM Hardener
Coreli C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Medium 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I