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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Interested in the state of Faction Warfare? Listen to our recent Round Table discussion....

First post
Author
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#101 - 2012-07-16 14:16:25 UTC
Aradus Gunnell wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
I am sure I am in the minority but I like the way plexing and the current Sov mechanics work. I do however not like how D-plexing works, and yes I sometimes take an inty out and simply speed tank a plex but the majority of the time I am in a hookbill or CNI fully fitted for pvp. I also kill most of the rats probably about 75% of the time since I cant fight anything that comes in with them on me.


Someone already suggested that you should tie War Zone Control to the amount of LP gained instead of the other way around. I like this notion as it would encourage the D-plex , however I do not think it will create anything different then we have now.

People that plex (like myself) do it for ISK reasons as well as the War Zone control. The problem is the "freedom" that FW gives players creates a group that could care less about plexing and doesnt need the LP as income.

The fundamental problem you have is very simple:

You have people in FW that do not care about the mechanics of Sov and anything you will or could do still will not get them involved.

I wrote an extensive proposition to a couple people this weekend outlining this problem. In FW you have a mix of people like me that care about Sov and pushing WZ control, and then lots others that just want "free" kills. FW was a system of free kills but now it is indeed 0.0 light. I like it because now their are goals and objectives rather then log in and kill people only.

You cant feasibly mix the two concepts and come up with a good system. Its counter intuitive, and this is why I like the current system as is except for D-Plexing and I do not have a feasible idea that would solve this.


TLDR: Mixing people that want free kills with people that play FW for the sov mechanics will never mix well (especially without a true alliance command structure)

I



Also good stuff. So good to see people discussing this topic!

Bolster, we're gonna save you a chair on the next FW roundtable :P



As long as its not next to a Gallente scum , not a problem :)

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#102 - 2012-07-16 15:01:14 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:

As long as its not next to a Gallente scum , not a problem :)


Deal wiz it. You guys have the rest of your lives to bicker and blow each other up, in the meantime we gotta work on the feature itself! Cool

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Dock Workers
#103 - 2012-07-16 21:20:15 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
BolsterBomb wrote:
As long as its not next to a Gallente scum , not a problem :)


In your opinion, do I fall under the above categorization? :)
Cromwell Savage
The Screaming Seagulls
#104 - 2012-07-16 23:04:29 UTC
chatgris wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
As long as its not next to a Gallente scum , not a problem :)


In your opinion, do I fall under the above categorization? :)



Of course Chatgris! Of course!

Everyone knows that you are the evil mastermind behind all RL accusations and harrassment of certain fine, mature, mentally stable and rule abiding players of Teh State!

P
Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#105 - 2012-07-18 09:28:15 UTC
1) if a hostile placer leaves plex and you get in range of button, it resets to start state.
2) systems not being pushed de contest slowly.
3) the hit to the faction with no system control shouldn't be as bad, amarr are in a bad way. But there should still be a clear difference between winning loosing sides.

.....

Amymuffmuff
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#106 - 2012-07-18 10:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Amymuffmuff
i just want to say thanks to Spence for hosting it and look forward to many more chances to discuss things together in the future.

at the end of the day everyone should just do what they can in game to have fun.

i assume thats why most people play eve afterall.

as most of you know i've been on the minmatar side and yes we are "winning" currently so of course i am going to be happy but i do expect things to change eventually. the whole point of these discussions in this link is to try and work out together what we think is the best solution to the problems.

i know everyone is going to have there own personal view on things so its hard to encompass everyone but we will just do what we can to make it the best for all, even if its hard to believe coming from the "winning" side, i do still want the amarr and caldari to want to play and fight us.

i'm not going to get down to arguments in here over every little aspect of the game. the fact is there are plenty of people who are just on our side to whore LP and i can't blame them. if you aren't then its their own fault i guess. and i do understand that the missions that aren't vs the amarr are a lot harder to complete and they should be balanced. but i do stand by the fact that there shouldn't be a reset because it's not our fault that we actually worked hard when we saw the initial plan for FW changes from the FW fanfest discussion (i even made sure i had a corp mate ask questions for me as i couldn't make it). so you are all just going to have to get off your arses and come and kick us in.

(sorry if i got a little off topic to the exact texts of the thread i haven't read it all yet this is just something i wanted to say now)

/edit

i do think that plexes should count down if your forced to leave. even if someone of the opposing faction isn't there to force it.

Editor for evenews24.com

Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
#107 - 2012-07-18 15:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Nexxala
No they all save their hate for me chat. My peasant low grades and lack of a boosting alt makes me far more scum likeLol

So stop fighting Chat! He cheats! He must not pass me on BC....

chatgris wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
As long as its not next to a Gallente scum , not a problem :)


In your opinion, do I fall under the above categorization? :)

nom nom

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#108 - 2012-07-18 16:49:40 UTC
Quote:
TLDR: Mixing people that want free kills with people that play FW for the sov mechanics will never mix well (especially without a true alliance command structure)
This is a false and misleading statement. The "free kills" guys play an important role in helping the guys who play FW for the sov mechanics win.

d33pdenim
H-O-U-S-E
#109 - 2012-07-19 16:04:53 UTC
Our corp is pure low-sec pie group of players. All of a sudden we have found ourselves right in the FW (Black Rise) war zone.
We also became affiliated with small group of Gallente Militia guys picking around our home system. From pirate corp prospective the new FW is just a blast. So many targets, so many kills opportunities and new fighting techniques. Of course we had FW alts in all 3 factions from day 1 and made a fortunes in terms of ISKs via LP shops.

So we pay attention what is going on with FW in general, since we are involved somehow. And I have listened this podcast with great pleasure and interest. I really, really like the attitude of the guys who participated. They obviously take FW as integral part of the game, may be even as some role-playing in EvE, not only like ISK printing machine or cheap pvp plex runners hunters.

One part of the podcast was really interested for us. What the motivation for people to join Militia and fight for particular faction? And we are not talking here about armada of opportunistic alts.

I agree that FW pilots should get something unique, something more that LP shop.

How about to make faction ships as weapon of choice for FW pilots? Lets say this ships get extra bonuses for FW pilots. Something like resists, armor hit points, etc... And this bonuses depends on FW rank. Higher rank in hierarchy, more and better bonuses pilot has for certain ships belonging only to his faction. And make promotions for running defending plexes 3 (5, 10, whatever) times faster than for offensive.

I noticed a lot of ranting about how plex runners (farmers) avoid pvp and how invincible they are. Well, avoiding the fight is still part of pvp in this game. And what do you expect from few days old chars in not pvp fits? If you want to kill them, put some effort in it, do something more that just warp to the beacon
Plyn
Uncharted.
#110 - 2012-07-19 17:53:17 UTC
Heard some great ideas in that roundtable. To throw in my two cents, and elaborate on some of what I liked:


  1. Change system upgrades to modify plex behavior.


    • In a completely unupgraded system there are no rats in plexes at all. This means that newbies can come into FW and lurk around the less populated areas still earning their LP, having a tangible benefit to the militia.

    • Each level of system upgrade increases the defensive hold the faction has on the plexes in that system. Starting off with just some basic rats.

    • Level two can add some elite rats, maybe some scrams but not necessarily webs, meaning the plexer is more commited to the plex because it's harder to gtfo, but they aren't a sitting duck forced to PvE.

    • Level 3 upgrade can add those webs in. At this level of investment into a system the plexers have to consider better strategy. Multiple pilots in PvP ships working together, or maybe a PvP + PvE team.

    • Increasing difficulty at level 4 and 5 upgrades. At the highest level the plexes should be difficult enough to do that a decent fleet is required. Not incursion level or anything, because you are expecting some PvP conflict, but definitely not something you would want to afk either.

    • This provides fleet conflict points and protects core systems from being over-contested by LPfarm alts. Scale loyalty points for plexes with the increased difficulty. If a plex normally gave 20k LP and you could do it solo, at level 3 you need a couple of people to do it, put a multiplier on that LP so when it's split it's worth it for fleets to do them together.

    • Modify LP costs to upgrade systems so it's fairly expensive to fortify your position. Include a cost modifier correlating to your militia's Tier, meaning if your militia controls almost the entire warzone it will be MUCH more costly to upgrade systems, making it unprofitable for players to make the whole warzone harder to capture.

    • Sounds like a lot of grinding right? Modify bunker HP in upgraded systems... or rather, modify bunker HP in general and give a bonus to upgraded systems. In a fully upgraded system a bunker would have about the same HP as it has now. In an non-upgraded system these should be much easier to destroy. This allows no-name backwater systems to become hotbeds for small gang FW conflict, where a small contingent of players might work up contest for a day or two then come in with a 5 man fleet and flip the bunker in half an hour. The other militia can scramble to put a defense together, but neither side will feel like they have to wait for off hours to make a play on a system that has little tactical significance. Sure, you can bring a huge fleet and flip that non-upgraded bunker really fast, but your exposing a larger group of assets to accomplish a goal a smaller group could do.

    • The need to defend systems with middle level upgrades will feel more urgent, as militias will not want the LP dumped into upgrades to be wasted.


  2. As mentioned in that wonderful round table, modify the Tier system's benefits to give bonus LP when you gain LP instead of modifying the LP store's item cost.


    • This gives a direct, tangible benefit to capturing systems instead of sitting on vulnerable systems. There should be a constant sense of urgency to flip or defend systems. Being able to completely dismiss your systems being captured and experiencing no real loss in the long run is both immersion breaking and conducive to player apathy.

    • This will give players more incentive to defensively plex, as losing any one system could actually matter.

    • Militias that are currently losing won't feel such a morale hit because their LP will still feel like it's worth something, even if they aren't earning as much of it.


Shepard Book
Underground Stargate
#111 - 2012-07-19 19:17:15 UTC
A losing Militia complaining about losing and not having the benefits of wining is amusing. Not sure exactly who went EMO in that round table but you should concentrate more on being objective and constructive IMO. You also need to put aside grudges of other people if you are going to try to improve the FW mechanic. That was the goal of the round table.

I agree the losing side should at least make more than a high sec lvl 4 missioner because of the risk factor. I also believe the wining side should have better rewards than the losing.

I would like to see the allies have the ability to help each other more and reap the benefits on both fronts. We have a bunch of corps leaving to join their ally because of rewards. I say let them stay in either militia and help each other with the rewards. This goes for victory points as well.

I would also like to see speed tanking taken out somehow and make them at least have to kill the rats. Speed tanking like 4 or 5 spawns all together is intended?
Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-07-19 22:13:06 UTC
Just to clarify since I've seen this mentioned by different people. I don't want to make it impossible to run away in the FW plex system. What bugs me is that running away is rewarded so much. The system shouldn't be geared so that people who constantly run away are still able to reap LP rewards, and in fact do so at a much higher rate than those who actually stay and fight. That's the big problem, since ostensibly FW is supposed to encourage PVP. If a plex farmer bails from a plex, the player who chased him out then has to sit back on the button and run it down farther than he would have to run a normal plex. Meanwhile, the farmer can go and run an entirely new plex, with its own LP reward, in another system in less time than it takes to reconquer the other plex.

The way XG put it in another thread was that you are essentially punishing the defender for winning (by causing the attacking player to bail), making him waste his time running down the timer again. The system should be constructed so that those who actually fight and actually risk something get the greatest rewards, while those who constantly run get next to nothing. That's why I think we should have timers that reset when an entity is not running them, as well as killing the speed tanking issue.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Dock Workers
#113 - 2012-07-19 22:45:22 UTC
d33pdenim wrote:
And what do you expect from few days old chars in not pvp fits? If you want to kill them, put some effort in it, do something more that just warp to the beacon


It isn't that we can't kill them - it's that they have such a high (if not the highest) effect on sov of any players, yet they have no interest in pvp (not even fitting for it).
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#114 - 2012-07-19 22:47:44 UTC
Shepard Book wrote:
A losing Militia complaining about losing and not having the benefits of wining is amusing.

Personally I believe the winning faction should get LP for every time they bait the losing faction into whining on the forums.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#115 - 2012-07-19 22:53:23 UTC
d33pdenim wrote:

How about to make faction ships as weapon of choice for FW pilots? Lets say this ships get extra bonuses for FW pilots. Something like resists, armor hit points, etc... And this bonuses depends on FW rank. Higher rank in hierarchy, more and better bonuses pilot has for certain ships belonging only to his faction. And make promotions for running defending plexes 3 (5, 10, whatever) times faster than for offensive.

Currently faction ships are cheaper for FW than for the general public. This is always true for faction frigs even if one side can't get out of Tier 1.

Another idea was to treat pirate faction ships as T2 ships for plex entry requirements (since they are better than T2). This would mean empire faction ships would be "king of the plex" (outside of destroyers in minor plexes).

I would love to fit up an all-federation faction ship. I think Sigari Kitawa had a great idea about giving better bonuses to Faction ships sporting the same faction gear (Fed Navy Blasters would perform better on Fed Navy Comets than they would on a T2 or T1 hull, for example).

Aradus Gunnell
Omni Defense Corp.
Slightly Competent
#116 - 2012-07-19 22:54:13 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Shepard Book wrote:
A losing Militia complaining about losing and not having the benefits of wining is amusing.

Personally I believe the winning faction should get LP for every time they bait the losing faction into whining on the forums.


Only if the losing side gets points every time the 'winning' side acts smug :)


But seriously; I hope some of the movers and shakers at CCP are looking at this thread and taking the time to consider that many, many people who have invested time and energy into Faction Warfare agree that the system needs tweaking.


Things we can all agree on:

1. The side winning the conflict should have benefits greater than the losing side;

2. There should be some type of incentive(s) for the losing side to keep on fighting (other than 'pride' which has never worked in Eve)...and to discourage them from just throwing an alt into the winning militia and compounding the problem;

3. PvP is fun, and we enjoy melting the faces of our enemies, and then talking crap in local, no matter what side you're on :P

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#117 - 2012-07-20 20:37:43 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Cearain wrote:

I would rather they did away with defensive plexing altogether. Force the winning side to actually fight the offensive plexer in order to "defend" their system. "Defending" your system by running a plex when wartargets aren't even present is lame and deserves no reward.

The other option would be to make a player have to pay lp in order to have his defensive plex lower the amount the system is contested. In sum the system is liekly too lopsided for the winning side. We don't need to make it more lopsided. But here aere some other reasons its good not to give lp for dplexing.


[quote=Andre Vauban]
This is a horrible idea. If I want to take a system, I just need to find the hour or two a day where you don't have presence in the system and run a few plexs then. It will take a long time, but it makes defense impossible. You could totally dominate a system for 20 hours a day and still loose it because you didn't cover two hours a day..


I don't really think defensive plexing is really "defending" a system at all. It is often done when no one is even there to defend the system against.

I think many in faction war think its their right to let people offensive plex their system while they sit there in a gang or docked up and then wait until the wartargets leave so they can then orbit the button with no intereference.

I just finished running offensive plexes for 30 minutes in Dal auga and kourmonen - busy minmatar systems - and no one seemed to care. Why should they? If they have lots of time (as lots of eve players appearantly do) they can just orbit a button when no wartargets are around and decontest the system.

In the case you propose (which is far fetched with no one in your faction present at all for 2 hours everyday at the same time for 20 days lol) you would be able to recapture the system quickly as well (although if it were your base that may cause a small problem.) Or if the system just involved paying some lp for your defensive pleixing to work toward decontesting the sytem, you could do that.

Either way you would be punished for not defending in pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Hobocus
Wildcard.
#118 - 2012-07-21 06:03:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Hobocus
Big smile SAHTOGAS LIVES!!!

MINNIES SUCK

Minnies Suck
subtle turtle
Doozer Mining Cartel
#119 - 2012-07-21 13:59:04 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Shepard Book wrote:
A losing Militia complaining about losing and not having the benefits of wining is amusing.

Personally I believe the winning faction should get LP for every time they bait the losing faction into whining on the forums.


LOL a forum trolling sov mechanic! If we had that, though, the large null alliances would HAVE to join FW, forum trolling is their primary mode of game play.