EVE General Discussion

This case is still not paying to gain an advantage. It's paying for isk, which can be earned by anyone in game without spending real life money.

EDIT:

Had to look through eve-kill to find the losses. That's just... I don't even know what to say.

They are.

Scouting can be provided by (you know) scouts. Money can be gained through numerous AFK/minimal-interaction means. Hauling can be (and indeed is) out-sourced to other people. Everything an alt can do can be done by another person because that's what an alt is in game terms.

…except that the notion that these advantages are only available to the ones with alts is a thoroughly false one. Thus, no P2W.

…as are the actual benefits you get from them: most notably convenience for the player. It's not an in-game advantage; it's not a part of gameplay; it just makes the player less reliant on other people and on having the personal skills required to get the same things done. None of the convenience is in-game — it's all out-of-game and convenience for the player. Same goes for the supposed (but not actual) advantages of PLEX trading.

While there might not be any hard definitions of P2W, the industry as a whole do not count such player-convenience services as P2W. The actual in-game advantages alts bring are available to everyone for the simple reason that in-game, alts are just another character, and there are plenty of those to go around to serve the needs of the alt-less player.

…and yet, none of those advantages require an alt.

If you can't do it that's you're fault not ours.

-Personal problem
-Personal choice
-Trick question. If you aren't flying solo then you are obviously flying with somebody.
-That is between you and your corp
-Same as above


Fly smarter. There are tons of us who do not fly with alts nor do we need them. You are competing against invisible monsters. I've gone through many gates without a scout. I've taken the time to jump a few systems to check prices. I've fought many people without worrying if they have a booster alt or not. If you prefer to purposefully put yourself in crutches then that is your choice.

You want the benefits that come with multiple party involvement, without the multiple parties included. Good luck with that one.

Exactly the point, summed up in one sentence and without misleading snips and quotes. People have been steadily pretending that the benefits that come from multiple party involvement are readily available for all, when they really aren't when other players aren't available or can't/won't help, and if you don't use alts, as I've demonstrated there

This is also their basis in pretending that alts are no P2W in EvE, -according to their definition of P2W: something which cannot be acquired through ingame means- which is quite disturbing.

Except, that there are quite a few cases in which they are. Allow me to fully quote EFT, since you haven't said anything new -I might as well do the same-, and been muddling an interesting discussion with snipped quotes, and saying options are available, when they really aren't.

I do suspect you do this to stay on top of threads and bottom feed on likes, since a newcomer in the discussion won't read 30 pages, might be led astray by your post format and actually believe you know what you're talking about.






"How is the EVE community so against 'paying to win' gameplay and yet alts are fine?
by EFT

P2W has no definition set in stone. For some, it's paying for something that cannot be acquired through gameplay, for others, it's any kind of microtransaction that provides an advantage and circumvents the time it would take to acquire, through gameplay, such an advantage.

We've all been discussing this definition of P2W, and alts only a bit, forgetting that the original question revolved completely about them.
Thing is, why is a group so adamantly against a "shortcut" definition of P2W, while the others upholds that any shortcut acquired through RL money is really P2W, and what does it have to do with alts?


There was a time in EvE when alts could only be acquired through RL money, in such a time, they could have been said to be P2W, however replaceable multiple characters are said to be by some. Multiple characters that a single player control are an undeniable convenience. You can assign them to tasks you couldn't realistically ask of a fellow corpmate, such as, be a static scout in a key system, grind money for you in afk lvl4 missions, semi-afk haul through Empire... Alts increase your efficiency tremendously, and you don't owe other players anything when using them. They enable you to be highly self-sufficient, and you don't depend on the varying playtimes of your fellow corpmates/ingame friends. If you're solo, or have weird playtimes, alts are not replaceable by anyone else. Thus, it verily could be said that before timecodes and PLEX, alts were really P2W, whatever definition of it you'd like to use.


Now that alts can be fully funded through ingame isk, with which you can buy PLEX, are they still a form of P2W? Anybody can acquire them and pay for the accounts they're on, through isk. It will undoubtedly take some grind, or clever schemes, but it can be done. However, can it be reliably done by any kind of casual player? When discussing this, some will say anyone can earn 1B a day, while other say that it's only a tiny fraction of the playerbase that can. Since we don't have hard data on that, let's not tackle this point, and let's argue that anybody can earn sufficient isk to fund multiple alts.

Now, WILL anybody fund multiple alts? This is an MMORPG, that is, a role-playing game, in which the enjoyment you have is, for some people, to really play a role, like in the Pen&Paper games of olde. This kind of roleplayer will probably prefer to play a single character, or will have a few alts to serve his main, creating a backstory around them. However, not everybody enjoys to manage a family, or group, of characters. The portion (tiny, probably) of the playerbase that would rather roleplay a single character does not have access to the same convenience, since, as has been said above, you will not realistically ask someone else to afk grind missions for you, for example. So, in their paradigm, alts are really P2W, because the advantage they provide -regardless if it's acquired through isk or RL money-, will not be accessible to them.

Someone will know undoubtedly cite Sirloin and say that such a roleplayer is the worst scrub ever, because he does not take fully advantage of ingame options. He is a scrub, in a Play-to-Win paradigm. But in a roleplaying paradigm, he is not. After all, this is a roleplaying game, and players should be allowed to play a single role, should they choose to, and not be at a severe disadvantage versus those who choose to play several at once.
Those disadvantages being, for example, unability to scout reliably, to grind isk in afk manners, to semi-afk haul, to safely shop if you're a pirate, etc...
Ingame means could be developed for most of those: traffic info for Empire gates, Interbus hauling, black market haulers shopping for you in Empire... the afk isk grind would remain, though, which would only enhance the P2W issue.

A cynic would argue that such means are not developed ingame at all, as an incentive for players to invest in alts, which brings revenue to CCP, since sold PLEX has to be bought by someone anyway.

Apart from the hardcore roleplayers, there are numerous players who very simply do not enjoy having to control multiple characters, due to technical limitations, some belief that it's "not fun", and more generally the false hope that whatever the convenience they do provide, one can do the same on his own, albeit more slowly. So, in their paradigm, the advantage provided by alts is not obtainable through ingame means either.

What does it have to do with P2W then? Well, quite simply, alts cost money, either real one, or isk investment. It is also quite evident than in most cases, it is more convenient, faster and funnier to fund them through RL money, keeping the isk ingame for nefarious, or not, purposes. And the advantage they provide, is not accessible to the playerbase that does not invest in them for personal reasons -see above for examples.

Pay to win - I pay real money and get an in-game advantage. Whether it is a short-cut to something that is already available through other means, or if it is something that is not otherwise available is irrelevant. You can pay the developer (or a third party) real money to gain some sort of advantage.

We have this in EVE currently in the form of PLEX and alternate accounts. Assuming the goal is to get rid of the ability for players to spend cash for in-game advantages, getting rid of PLEX is easy enough (although will likely **** a lot of people off and lose customers.) Finding a solution to alts is much more difficult.

But hey, who cares about the integrity of the simulation/sandbox when there's cash to be made? We can use that money that we get by making the game worse to then make the game better! Makes total sense!

EDIT: Why is **** censored? Is urine censored too? Consider this my official test. Bet it isn't.

EDIT 2: Nope, urine is okay but **** is not. Makes about as much sense as spending real cash for an advantage in an interactive simulation.