EVE General Discussion

How is the EVE community so against 'paying to win' gameplay and yet alts are fine?
by EFT

P2W has no definition set in stone. For some, it's paying for something that cannot be acquired through gameplay, for others, it's any kind of microtransaction that provides an advantage and circumvents the time it would take to acquire, through gameplay, such an advantage.

We've all been discussing this definition of P2W, and alts only a bit, forgetting that the original question revolved completely about them.
Thing is, why is a group so adamantly against a "shortcut" definition of P2W, while the others upholds that any shortcut acquired through RL money is really P2W, and what does it have to do with alts?


There was a time in EvE when alts could only be acquired through RL money, in such a time, they could have been said to be P2W, however replaceable multiple characters are said to be by some. Multiple characters that a single player control are an undeniable convenience. You can assign them to tasks you couldn't realistically ask of a fellow corpmate, such as, be a static scout in a key system, grind money for you in afk lvl4 missions, semi-afk haul through Empire... Alts increase your efficiency tremendously, and you don't owe other players anything when using them. They enable you to be highly self-sufficient, and you don't depend on the varying playtimes of your fellow corpmates/ingame friends. If you're solo, or have weird playtimes, alts are not replaceable by anyone else. Thus, it verily could be said that before timecodes and PLEX, alts were really P2W, whatever definition of it you'd like to use.


Now that alts can be fully funded through ingame isk, with which you can buy PLEX, are they still a form of P2W? Anybody can acquire them and pay for the accounts they're on, through isk. It will undoubtedly take some grind, or clever schemes, but it can be done. However, can it be reliably done by any kind of casual player? When discussing this, some will say anyone can earn 1B a day, while other say that it's only a tiny fraction of the playerbase that can. Since we don't have hard data on that, let's not tackle this point, and let's argue that anybody can earn sufficient isk to fund multiple alts.

Now, WILL anybody fund multiple alts? This is an MMORPG, that is, a role-playing game, in which the enjoyment you have is, for some people, to really play a role, like in the Pen&Paper games of olde. This kind of roleplayer will probably prefer to play a single character, or will have a few alts to serve his main, creating a backstory around them. However, not everybody enjoys to manage a family, or group, of characters. The portion (tiny, probably) of the playerbase that would rather roleplay a single character does not have access to the same convenience, since, as has been said above, you will not realistically ask someone else to afk grind missions for you, for example. So, in their paradigm, alts are really P2W, because the advantage they provide -regardless if it's acquired through isk or RL money-, will not be accessible to them.

Someone will know undoubtedly cite Sirloin and say that such a roleplayer is the worst scrub ever, because he does not take fully advantage of ingame options. He is a scrub, in a Play-to-Win paradigm. But in a roleplaying paradigm, he is not. After all, this is a roleplaying game, and players should be allowed to play a single role, should they choose to, and not be at a severe disadvantage versus those who choose to play several at once.
Those disadvantages being, for example, unability to scout reliably, to grind isk in afk manners, to semi-afk haul, to safely shop if you're a pirate, etc...
Ingame means could be developed for most of those: traffic info for Empire gates, Interbus hauling, black market haulers shopping for you in Empire... the afk isk grind would remain, though, which would only enhance the P2W issue.

A cynic would argue that such means are not developed ingame at all, as an incentive for players to invest in alts, which brings revenue to CCP, since sold PLEX has to be bought by someone anyway.

Apart from the hardcore roleplayers, there are numerous players who very simply do not enjoy having to control multiple characters, due to technical limitations, some belief that it's "not fun", and more generally the false hope that whatever the convenience they do provide, one can do the same on his own, albeit more slowly. So, in their paradigm, the advantage provided by alts is not obtainable through ingame means either.

What does it have to do with P2W then? Well, quite simply, alts cost money, either real one, or isk investment. It is also quite evident than in most cases, it is more convenient, faster and funnier to fund them through RL money, keeping the isk ingame for nefarious, or not, purposes. And the advantage they provide, is not accessible to the playerbase that does not invest in them for personal reasons -see above for examples.


It's only reasonable that equal accessibility for most of the convenience alts provide be implemented. Otherwise, it can truly be said that alts ARE Pay-to-Win.

It's also only reasonable that alts controlled by a single player should be flagged as thus. As of now, alts provide a riskless and easymode way to circumvent all kinds of consequences in what should be a cold and harsh universe. You can use them for any kind of scamming and ganking, then reprocess them, thereby evading any form of consequences, since they are disposable, and your main character(s) are left completely out of the loop, and face no comeback at all. You can also use them to avoid pirates and criminal elements, who'd like maybe to get back at the character flying a pimpship, who scouts everywhere with a random alt before he ventures forth and taunts the avoided pirates. Unflagged alts are a problem for everyone.

Yes, its possible, and if they learn fast, even likely, as long as they are in reasonably close level tanks.

2 IS7 engage each other - equal load outs, equal player skill, only one is using gold ammo. Gold ammo guy will win. \

Gold ammo - better penetration than silver ammo. Can only bought by gold. If EVE was pay to win, we would have ammo that has better range/uses less capacitor ONLY available for direct cash investment. You can have a trillion gazillion of sik, you will still not be able to buy it and it's not trade able. That is pay to win.

ISK gives you no advantage - anyone can get isk via various means. Pay to Win - something that can ONLY be acquired by paying $ for a limited amount. Like making T3 Battleships that have flat out better stat and only selling for 25$ per piece via in game store.

Because its the thread that never ends!
It goes on and on my friend!....

Yes, but now it's in your head, and you will be humming it when you go to sleep tonight...
Curse you Micheal Dietrich!

As luck would have it,

alts are great to have, say your main is in a big 00 alliance and on a deployment of war. your sitting there looking at your wallet thinking i need to make some isk for this toon. You look at your alt and think. i just had an idea i can make isk with my alt.

And tbh theirs already a number of players myself included that buy mass quantity of plexes from ccp and sell them for isk in the game to get those nice ships we want. or ships we just want to throw away in pvp somewhere.

There's no advantage having alts on one account as everyone has them even if they don't use the spaces.

There is an advantage having two or more accounts. Can everyone have multiple account, no, why? Due to their personal circumstances.

So I'd say multiple accounts are really a case of pay-to-win and play-to-win, but those that can't do either are stuffed. But there's many faces of EvE so if they can't compete in that way then there's always something else they can do.


But that's all I'll say on this subject as I can't be arsed to get back into this debate tonight.

Everyone can do it because you can pay for these accounts with in game money hence not pay-to-win.

…fortunately, EVE doesn't do any of those either. In addition, P2W is not the only way to implement F2P, as shown by even more modern incarnations of that kind of revenue model, where you buy convenience for the player rather than in-game advantages.

EVE doesn't particularly offer that either (not really being a F2P game and all), but the examples people bring up pretty consistently fall into that category instead.