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T2BPO why they should be removed and how.

First post
Author
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#681 - 2012-07-18 19:55:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
of course they can, but as a economic thinking person they would never waste money and do that. everyone can manipulate the market, you dont have to be a manufcature at all, btw.

Of course they wouldn't waste money because they don't have to invent anything.

If you have an item that can sell for several billion, don't use it, but don't sell it either, what do you call that ?
If you have an item that can sell for several billion, but use it to make some small profit instead, was that really free ?

The vast majority of the anti-T2-BPO argument collapses as soon as you realize that selling a T2 BPO you have when you need the ISK is pretty much almost the same as buying a T2 BPO somebody else is selling when you have the ISK and don't need it urgently in terms of total net asset value.
Cap James Tkirk
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#682 - 2012-07-18 22:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cap James Tkirk
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
of course they can, but as a economic thinking person they would never waste money and do that. everyone can manipulate the market, you dont have to be a manufcature at all, btw.


Of course they wouldn't waste money because they don't have to invent anything.


as an inventor they may not "waste money inventing" but they are limited to that one print and can only pump out so many items per day, look at t2 invuls if bpo owner could meet the demands the item would be a few 100k not 2ish m a pop

just sayin if ya dont have first hand knowledge on a facet of the game prob should leave the tinfoil hattery at the door also the great one line responses
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#683 - 2012-07-18 22:51:53 UTC
Cap James Tkirk wrote:
as an inventor they may not "waste money inventing" but they are limited to that one print and can only pump out so many items per day, look at t2 invuls if bpo owner could meet the demands the item would be a few 100k not 2ish m a pop


They can't copy those BPOs?
Cap James Tkirk
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#684 - 2012-07-18 22:59:00 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Cap James Tkirk wrote:
as an inventor they may not "waste money inventing" but they are limited to that one print and can only pump out so many items per day, look at t2 invuls if bpo owner could meet the demands the item would be a few 100k not 2ish m a pop


They can't copy those BPOs?



they can but apparently they are not making enough voulmeon thier own to cover certain market areas or they would just market pvp everyone to the ground
also for example i can make 20x300 runs on 10 adaptive ivuls in x amount of hours so i could essentially pump out 200 copies of 10 run adapt invuls II (wont happen but i can hope) so in theroy i could make 2k of these items in x days they woul need to make copies and can onlymake so many at a time not sure as i dont have t2 bpos to play with but if i can do that across 4 toons how are is the bpo better?
Pipa Porto
#685 - 2012-07-18 23:32:30 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Cap James Tkirk wrote:
as an inventor they may not "waste money inventing" but they are limited to that one print and can only pump out so many items per day, look at t2 invuls if bpo owner could meet the demands the item would be a few 100k not 2ish m a pop


They can't copy those BPOs?


You really, really need to do your homework.

Copying a T2 BPO generally (I think it's universal, but I haven't looked at every T2 BPO) takes longer per run then manufacturing from it. And it costs materials.

For instance, copying a T2 Invuln BPO takes 5hrs per run, and costs 30 data sheets and .5 of a R.Db - Ishukone, so ~100k Isk per copy. Manufacturing takes ~3hrs per run.

There are maybe a half dozen reasons to copy a T2 BPO. Running on multiple lines isn't one of them.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#686 - 2012-07-18 23:32:33 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
They can't copy those BPOs?

Copy time is longer than manufacture time (IIRC, even with max theoretically possible boosts), so copying would not really make a lot of sense.
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#687 - 2012-07-18 23:34:06 UTC  |  Edited by: shar'ra matcevsovski
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Cap James Tkirk wrote:
as an inventor they may not "waste money inventing" but they are limited to that one print and can only pump out so many items per day, look at t2 invuls if bpo owner could meet the demands the item would be a few 100k not 2ish m a pop


They can't copy those BPOs?


takes twice as long to copy 1 run as to manufacture. And no you dont get a second BPO if you copy it, Cpt. Invention.

shar'ra phone home

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#688 - 2012-07-18 23:38:47 UTC
Confidence in expressed position and willingness to defend it appears to be an inverted bell curve with respect to knowledge about the subject :P
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#689 - 2012-07-19 00:00:08 UTC
Funny how you all defend these people.

Maybe you all own T2 BPOs. That makes sense.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#690 - 2012-07-19 00:15:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
You have all but conclusively proven you barely know how things work with regards to T2 invention/production, and you haven't shown a lot of signs of being capable of understanding the economic implications of the things you're trying to argue, whereas people with various degrees of proven track records argue the exact opposite thing of what you're trying to imply would be better.
So, you know, maybe you just don't have much of an idea about what you think you're talking about, and almost certainly can't propose an overall beneficial solution or at least an improvement to something that's not really much of a problem to begin with.

P.S.
And, by the way, if I'd own any number of T2 BPOs, do you know what would be one of the first things I'd do with them ? SELL THEM ALL. Slowly (careful to not crash the T2 BPO trade market) but surely, every last one of them.
Oh, that's even if I actually have the skills to build almost anything in the game, with only a handful of exceptions. That's because T2 BPOs have horrible, atrociously low, barely noteworthy RoIs, while also requiring a non-trivial amount of effort to properly and fully utilize.
Even with ISK just sitting there for over one year, maybe up to almost two years barely touched, and I can still find better opportunities to make more additional ISK on average (other than T2 manufacture from BPOs) with a WHOLE lot less effort needed.

P.P.S.
Do you even understand what would be needed to, say, fully utilize 11x Invul Field II BPOs ? That for best results, you'll have to keep a POS manufacture line operating in a highsec system with the BPOs in a NPC station office (for minimizing but not eliminating risks), and that you'd have to be careful NOT to attract wardecs, so you'll probably need to use an alt, and also populate the corp with some alts too, to not make it look like a one-man op (so easy pickings) ? And that you'd need to periodically refuel the POS and shuttle all needed materials in, then shuttle the product back, then sell it from an unaligned alt ? And that you'll probably want to do that at a respectable distance from where you sell your stuff ? And so on and so forth ?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#691 - 2012-07-19 00:25:26 UTC
Akita T wrote:
You have all but conclusively proven you barely know how things work with regards to T2 invention/production, and you haven't shown a lot of signs of being capable of understanding the economic implications of the things you're trying to argue, whereas people with various degrees of proven track records argue the exact opposite thing of what you're trying to imply would be better.


Oh, "you don't have degree in economics" card. Big smile
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#692 - 2012-07-19 00:27:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Oh, "you don't have degree in economics" card. Big smile

No, the "you seem to either not know how showinfo and a basic calculator work, or be really lazy and not bother using them at all" card, if you must put a label on it.

P.S.
I don't have any formal education in economics either, I'm a freaking automation engineer by training, untangling game economies is just an ascended hobby. But I know how to gather data, crunch some rather simple numbers and interpret the fairly straightforward results, and I have a bit of hands-on experience with the system which you seem to almost completely lack (due to how your posts so far were worded).
Pipa Porto
#693 - 2012-07-19 00:33:00 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Akita T wrote:
You have all but conclusively proven you barely know how things work with regards to T2 invention/production, and you haven't shown a lot of signs of being capable of understanding the economic implications of the things you're trying to argue, whereas people with various degrees of proven track records argue the exact opposite thing of what you're trying to imply would be better.


Oh, "you don't have degree in economics" card. Big smile


No, it's the "you don't have the first clue what you're talking about, and every claim you have yet made is demonstrably false" card.

Nobody's rebutting your claims by calling into question your credentials, we're rebutting your claims with facts.

For instance, you seem to think that you must put BPOs in a POS to copy them at the POS. That is demonstrably false.
You seem to think that there is some value in copying T2 BPOs for manufacture. That is also demonstrably false.

You also seem to think that it's valid to skip right to a new claim when your last one gets trashed. That's called Moving the Goalposts.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#694 - 2012-07-19 00:36:19 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
For instance, you seem to think that you must put BPOs in a POS to copy them at the POS. That is demonstrably false.


Do you even know how long it takes to get 10.0 standing with faction, 10.0 sec status and moon in hisec? Especially with pure industry trained character with very little combat skills.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#695 - 2012-07-19 00:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
For instance, you seem to think that you must put BPOs in a POS to copy them at the POS. That is demonstrably false.

Do you even know how long it takes to get 10.0 standing with faction, 10.0 sec status and moon in hisec? Especially with pure industry trained character with very little combat skills.

And, for instance, you think you need 10.0 standing with faction to do any of that (or that sec status matters AT ALL in any of this), when 7.00 is the maximum useful faction standing, and 5.00 faction standing is quite sufficient to do it all by yourself.
More importantly, you can actually BUY such a corp (with the necessary faction standings) without ever gaining those standings yourself (and it's rather cheap and relatively fast too).
Plus, there's a crapload of free moons even in some of the 0.5 systems, let alone higher sec levels.

P.S. Getting 5.00 faction standing is actually quite easy nowadays. Getting up to about 2.00 can be achieved with a week-old char by just running all available tutorials from all possible agents (heck, actual skills needed probably only take one day, but you want a high social skill to boost gains, so that's what takes the longest), and a truckload of the rest can easily be fast-forwarded via non-mandatory-combat COSMOS agents if you are willing to shell out the ISK to buy the necessary item packs from the contracts, plus the "turn over tags" agents at datacenters. And for further fast faction standings, just run some damn courier missions and the non-combat storylines they spawn like rabbits (because you spam a lot more courier missions than combat missions at minimal skill levels).
Pipa Porto
#696 - 2012-07-19 00:40:54 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
For instance, you seem to think that you must put BPOs in a POS to copy them at the POS. That is demonstrably false.


Do you even know how long it takes to get 10.0 standing with faction, 10.0 sec status and moon in hisec? Especially with pure industry trained character with very little combat skills.


1. It is impossible to get 10.0 faction standing, Impossible to get 10.0 Sec Status (it's even hard to get past 5.0).

2. You don't need 10.0 Faction standing, you need 7.0 faction standing.

3. You can easily buy a corp with 5.0 Faction standing, because anchoring a POS only requires that your Corp have a certain standing.

4. Sec status is irrelevant.

5. You still haven't admitted that you were wrong about BPOs having to go into the POS, instead, you just moved the goalpost again.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#697 - 2012-07-19 00:51:03 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
3. You can easily buy a corp with 5.0 Faction standing, because anchoring a POS only requires that your Corp have a certain standing.


Do you even know how that standing is calculated?
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#698 - 2012-07-19 00:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
3. You can easily buy a corp with 5.0 Faction standing, because anchoring a POS only requires that your Corp have a certain standing.

Do you even know how that standing is calculated?

Yes, he/she does, but you apparently don't. Or you do, but can't make the mental leap required to understand how to EASILY "game" that system with the aid of another person (either as a favour or in exchange for cold, hard ISK).
That, and you can't be bothered to use the search function to look for trades of corps with standings.
Here's a quick start : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=103890
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#699 - 2012-07-19 01:00:18 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Yes, he/she does, but you apparently don't. Or you do, but can't make the mental leap required to understand how to EASILY "game" that system with the aid of another person (either as a favour or in exchange for cold, hard ISK).
That, and you can't be bothered to use the search function to look for trades of corps with good standings and see it all explained in a "buying corps with standings for dummies" fashion.


Ok...

- I buy a corp with 5.0 faction standing
- I get my research alt in (let's say this character has 2.0 standing with said faction)
- Corp's standing with that faction will drop.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#700 - 2012-07-19 01:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Ok...
- I buy a corp with 5.0 faction standing
- I get my research alt in (let's say this character has 2.0 standing with said faction)
- Corp's standing with that faction will drop.

It will drop after 7 days (edit: actually, after 7 DOWNTIMES) of your alt joining, ample time to anchor any number of towers you like. Once anchored, standings are irrelevant, you can online/offline them as much as you like. Your only worry would be in case you need to unanchor the tower or if it gets destroyed.
If your alt would be perfectly NEUTRAL towards that faction (same as all other members of the corp), standings would never change, and you would not have that problem at all and be able to put up or tear down as many towers as you like for the corp's lifetime.
Edit: "perfectly neutral" means "NULL" standings, as in, never having ran any missions nor shot any ships of that faction (as opposed to a non-displayed very low 0.045>x>-0.045 standing that's different from null/zero standing).
P.S. Only base standings matter, not effective ones. The connections skill has no effect, but it's easy to make minimal but non-null standings visible with it trained.