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[Proposal] Update the POS Refinery Arrays

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Infinite Force
#1 - 2012-07-17 18:26:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinite Force
Original thread here.

While we continue to wait for the much anticipated POS overhaul, can we please get an easy update?

There are currently 3 versions of the Refinery arrays for POS's with the following stats (that we care about):

Intensive Refining Array
Capacity : 200,000 m3
Max refining amount : 75%
Refining Time : 10,800 seconds
PowerGrid : 750,000 mw
CPU : 4,000 tf

Medium Intensive Refining Array
Capacity : 25,000 m3
Max refining amount : 75%
Refining Time : 5,400 seconds
PowerGrid : 375,000 mw
CPU : 2,000 tf

Refining Array
Capacity : 40,000 m3
Max refining amount : 35%
Refining Time : 3,600 seconds
PowerGrid : 100,000 mw
CPU : 700 tf


Given the history of these arrays and the amount of Ore/Ice that can be mined by even the smallest of groups and the lack of refining power, it can be easily seen why they don't see more usage.

- Will this circumvent Rorqual compression? No
- Will this circumvent players avoiding Outpost refining? No
- Will this help industrialists that have limited or no Outpost access? Yes

The idea behind these "suggested" updates are to allow these arrays to be used by POS owners that do not have access to the obviously more "efficient" Outposts or NPC stations by:

1. Lowering CPU & PG needs
2. Significantly reducing the time to refine
3. Increasing refining capacity
4. Increasing "max" refining amount
5. Refining Ore at a base 40% with skills (use the NPC station formula)
6. Remove single-ore refining restrictions (e.g. you can refine Veldspar & Jaspet & Bistot at the same time)


Additional suggestions:

1. Allow refining at a fixed 90 - 95% for raw Ore (see related thread)
2. Allow refining at a fixed 100% for compressed Ore (see related thread)


> > > NEW Proposed Stats < < < (28 June 2013: updated various stats)

Large Refining Array
Capacity : 4,200,000 m3
Max refining amount : 100%
Refining Time : 3,600 seconds
PowerGrid : 350,000 mw
CPU : 1,000 tf

Medium Refining Array
Capacity : 1,400,000 m3
Max refining amount : 100%
Refining Time : 1,800 seconds
PowerGrid : 225,000 mw
CPU : 750 tf

Small Refining Array
Capacity : 600,000 m3
Max refining amount : 100%
Refining Time : 900 seconds
PowerGrid : 100,000 mw
CPU : 500 tf

Suggestions and constructive feedback welcomed.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2012-07-17 19:02:47 UTC
Cross-posting, posting multiple copies of the same thread in different forums, is against the forum rules.

Also, this isn't the way to get in touch with the CSM as you said you were going to try to do in your other thread. If you want to get in touch with them, you just mail them directly.
Infinite Force
#3 - 2012-07-17 19:14:47 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Cross-posting, posting multiple copies of the same thread in different forums, is against the forum rules.

Also, this isn't the way to get in touch with the CSM as you said you were going to try to do in your other thread. If you want to get in touch with them, you just mail them directly.

Per cross posting, yes, I know. I requested the other thread be locked (was just slow getting there).

As far as getting in touch with CSM, I just dug that information up as well a few minutes ago.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Sigras
Conglomo
#4 - 2012-07-17 22:30:17 UTC
I thought I posted this in the previous thread, but i guess it got eaten.

This change, as you propose it would change minmatar stations from "most popular in new eden by an order of magnitude" to "only ever used for scrapmetal reprocessing and mineral compression" Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but it would also make basically all of the refinery upgrades to all of the stations useless.

35% gives you perfect refine with perfect skills and the 4% implant
40% means you dont need either the specialization skill to 5 OR you dont need the implant for perfect refine.

What I would propose would be a 20% base to basic refinery arrays and a 30% base to intensive arrays.

This means that you could get 81.88% yield out of a basic refinery array with perfect skills (85.88% with the implant)
Intensive arrays would give a yield of 91.88% (95.88% with the implant)

These numbers would still basically make all refinery upgrades to stations except minmatar ones obsolete, but matari stations would still be better because it is what they're specialized in.

I just dont think you should be able to get 100% refine without a station.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#5 - 2012-07-17 22:37:12 UTC
Outposts offer far more convenience than a POS. 100% refining at a POS that still takes half an hour is hardly convenient.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Infinite Force
#6 - 2012-07-17 23:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinite Force
Sigras wrote:
This change, as you propose it would change minmatar stations from "most popular in new eden by an order of magnitude" to "only ever used for scrapmetal reprocessing and mineral compression" Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but it would also make basically all of the refinery upgrades to all of the stations useless.

Not true. Remember that in an Outpost, you get "instant refine" of all types of stuff. At a POS, it's going to take a you 15, 30 or 60 minutes - for each type of Ore you want to refine - and you can only refine Ore, in limited quantities, nothing else.

With enough Ore, it could potentially take you up to 8 HOURS, or more, to refine it all. Unless you have no other choice, players will still use a Station.

Sigras wrote:
35% gives you perfect refine with perfect skills and the 4% implant
40% means you dont need either the specialization skill to 5 OR you dont need the implant for perfect refine.

What I would propose would be a 20% base to basic refinery arrays and a 30% base to intensive arrays.

This means that you could get 81.88% yield out of a basic refinery array with perfect skills (85.88% with the implant)
Intensive arrays would give a yield of 91.88% (95.88% with the implant)

These numbers would still basically make all refinery upgrades to stations except minmatar ones obsolete, but matari stations would still be better because it is what they're specialized in.

I just dont think you should be able to get 100% refine without a station.

Given the time it takes to refine any sizeable amount of a single Ore type, you should be able to get 100% refine - [edited out: if you use the implant - no longer feel it's necessary] - at a POS. I'll update the original post to use a 35% base refine rate.

Again, this will have no direct impact on stations as the "instant refine" will always win over the time it takes to grind through a ton of Ore.

Also, Alliances that want to dictate that these arrays are not allowed are certainly free to do so which would further lessen any potential impact to stations.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Sigras
Conglomo
#7 - 2012-07-18 08:24:08 UTC
I guess i can agree on the annoyance of having to wait for your refining to be done; living in a wormhole for a few months will teach you how annoying that is.

That being said, i do question the other numbers you put out there, the question I have is why would anyone use the medium intensive refining array when they could just use two refining arrays and get more ore processed faster with more granulation for the same CPU/PG cost.

The same goes for the intensive refining array

Either the efficiency should suffer, or it should take more time or something.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#8 - 2012-07-18 13:47:51 UTC
A couple of points:

1) You are asking for some fairly major changes here (having refining arrays take skills into account is hard, because they aren't really tied to a single person).
2) You are asking for changes in an area that CCP has said will be re-written, so any changes would probably be thrown out

If you an get a bunch more support in here, we can bring it up, but I suspect most people would rather CCP spend their time on the POS overhaul instead of changes to POS refineries that few people use (yes, partly because they suck).

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Infinite Force
#9 - 2012-07-18 18:50:42 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I guess i can agree on the annoyance of having to wait for your refining to be done; living in a wormhole for a few months will teach you how annoying that is.

That being said, i do question the other numbers you put out there, the question I have is why would anyone use the medium intensive refining array when they could just use two refining arrays and get more ore processed faster with more granulation for the same CPU/PG cost.

The same goes for the intensive refining array

Either the efficiency should suffer, or it should take more time or something.

Suggestions then on numbers, please?

The rough idea I had was to scale, but you are correct, that I didn't anticipate multiple arrays being in use - and I should have expected this.


Capacity - I don't think this should change much, or should just scale on size (e.g. S, M, L). The idea here is to be able to refine a reasonable amount of Ore that is being mined by a decent sized group (or to be able to save it up & refine later).

CPU / PG - I deliberatly scaled these. Sure you can put multiple Intensive Arrays on a tower, but you'll end up with no CPU/PG for defenses, so it would be a trade-off.

Efficiency - Addressed below.


Two step wrote:
A couple of points:

1) You are asking for some fairly major changes here (having refining arrays take skills into account is hard, because they aren't really tied to a single person).
2) You are asking for changes in an area that CCP has said will be re-written, so any changes would probably be thrown out

If you an get a bunch more support in here, we can bring it up, but I suspect most people would rather CCP spend their time on the POS overhaul instead of changes to POS refineries that few people use (yes, partly because they suck).

Yes, these could be viewed as large changes. I think that when you consider the usage of these structures, this might be all that is needed to bring them back into the realm of the "used".

The Arrays do take your skills into account - it's just that with perfect, or close to perfect, refining skills, the array is capped at a 75% yield. So, yes, somewhere in the equations, skills are used. If you capped it at say 90% pr 95% with no skills needed, then it would just be abused by day old toons.

I know it's possibly a DOA subject, given that a complete(?) POS update is coming. However, CCP did make the change to allow us to rename all the POS modules - granted, that was because of the crazy UI implementation - but it can be done.

As long as these changes can be kept to just adjusting the numbers (e.g. capacity / cpu / pg / refining % cap) and not functionality changes requiring a huge time investment, then they really are 15 minutes stat updates once the updated numbers have been decided upon.

To address the efficiency issue from above with the skills - if you were to just give the arrays a 100% cap - then your skills would truely decide the output and you wouldn't have to touch the forumula (e.g. - output = [array cap] * [reprocessing formula output]).

Thanks for the input. I'm adjusting the OP for refining yield (assuming the formula really is skill based).

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2012-07-18 19:18:57 UTC
sort of agree with Two Step here. Those are deceptively large changes to a feature which will begin a complete rewritte in less than a year. I don't see a pressing crisis caused by smaller mining arrays being underutilized compared to the largest model that would warrent CCP taking dev time out of existing projects, including said POS revamp.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Sigras
Conglomo
#11 - 2012-07-18 19:27:12 UTC
IIRC the formula is

(0.375 * (1 + refining * 0.02) * (1 + RefineryEfficiency * 0.04) * (1 + ProcessingSpecialization * 0.05)) + RefineryBase)

so with perfect skills you'd get a 61.875% yield with a 0% refinery.

but the OP is correct, refineries already do take into account your skills, so that isnt much of a change.

I also understand that CCP is already rewriting POSs and the change will be out SOON^tm but this would take next to 0 time as it would just be changing two variables; that being said, i figured AHARM would be all about wanting a better refinery out in WH space.
Infinite Force
#12 - 2012-07-18 19:53:11 UTC
Sigras wrote:
IIRC the formula is

(0.375 * (1 + refining * 0.02) * (1 + RefineryEfficiency * 0.04) * (1 + ProcessingSpecialization * 0.05)) + RefineryBase)

so with perfect skills you'd get a 61.875% yield with a 0% refinery.

but the OP is correct, refineries already do take into account your skills, so that isnt much of a change.

I also understand that CCP is already rewriting POSs and the change will be out SOON^tm but this would take next to 0 time as it would just be changing two variables; that being said, i figured AHARM would be all about wanting a better refinery out in WH space.

Yes, the formula is correct (I should have posted it sooner :) - thanks!

In the short term, this would be a bigger benefit to WH dwellers - at a minimum, it would certainly cut down on logistics. And yes, I have been a part of those "let's help move multiple cap ship quantities of ore into the WH to build with" fleets. Very time consuming.


Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
sort of agree with Two Step here. Those are deceptively large changes to a feature which will begin a complete rewritte in less than a year. I don't see a pressing crisis caused by smaller mining arrays being underutilized compared to the largest model that would warrent CCP taking dev time out of existing projects, including said POS revamp.

The problem with starting the complete rewrite "in less than a year" is that any potentially finished product is at least a year away with decent testing -- and we've already been pulling the "dead horse" along for a very long time.

That said, this is a simple update with a high return and near zero effort (like renaming the POS structures). While it is industrial-based, it is thowing a bone to the POS owners and, in effect, saying, "we feel your pain, heres an update that we can help you out with now as we integrate this into the new system."

All that needs to be agreed upon are the numbers - then HROLT & AHARM can anchor a few more of these :)

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Infinite Force
#13 - 2012-07-20 14:43:57 UTC
Looking for more support for the day.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Bunyip
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-07-25 17:36:59 UTC
This sounds like a reasonable change, meaning that a character will have to have max skills and implants in order to get full refine, when they can achieve that easily on outposts and NPC stations. POSes do need some love, and this is a simple change to allow players to make better use of these facilities.

Supported.
Infinite Force
#15 - 2012-07-25 17:58:02 UTC
Bunyip wrote:
This sounds like a reasonable change, meaning that a character will have to have max skills and implants in order to get full refine, when they can achieve that easily on outposts and NPC stations. POSes do need some love, and this is a simple change to allow players to make better use of these facilities.

Supported.


Thanks!

I do look forward to the upcoming POS changes - but this simple fix helps out the industrial types to be more self-sufficient in doing alliance / corp production.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Infinite Force
#16 - 2012-07-27 05:24:39 UTC
Yup... Still need an update.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Ellariona
B52 Bombers
#17 - 2012-07-27 06:17:57 UTC
Even an increased m³/run on the refineries would be good enough and could be done by the devs in less than no time.
Infinite Force
#18 - 2012-08-22 16:23:44 UTC
Keeping this at the top - not that the CSM or CCP really cares given the topics & replies in other related & unrelated threads.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-08-22 23:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Two step wrote:
A couple of points:

1) You are asking for some fairly major changes here (having refining arrays take skills into account is hard, because they aren't really tied to a single person).
2) You are asking for changes in an area that CCP has said will be re-written, so any changes would probably be thrown out

If you an get a bunch more support in here, we can bring it up, but I suspect most people would rather CCP spend their time on the POS overhaul instead of changes to POS refineries that few people use (yes, partly because they suck).


For the new overhaul CCP could change the mechanism of the refinery, giving it Job Slots instead of the refine button... It would be easier to code and make skills relevant...

Also, if CCP wants to make things better for POS use, and encourage player to have individual POSes or join corporations, they can set a fix % of the "We Take" that can't be reduced with standing ... or rise the actual "We Take" on npc stations. These way people would use POS to refine...

Also take a look at this. and say what you think, it is about the new pos system.... I would really appreciate if someone from CSM could spend a couple of minutes in it...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=143764

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#20 - 2012-08-24 09:19:37 UTC
This really needs to be done, people constantly complaining for YEARS that industrialists are risk averse and won't go to 0.0.

Unfortunately 25% flat out nerf on their main in-game activity might also have something to do with it ?

.
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