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plz remove Tengu from this game.
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Josef Djugashvilis
#81 - 2012-07-18 07:53:51 UTC
I do not fly one, but my freinds who do so, say it is overpowered.


Still, some ship/fitting combo will always be the 'best'.

This is not a signature.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-07-18 08:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
The Tengu missile subsystem gets a 100% dps bonus.



Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I do not fly one, but my freinds who do so, say it is overpowered.


Still, some ship/fitting combo will always be the 'best'.


Newsflash to both of you: Tengu's dps isn't all that great. Zomg, Cait crazy, stfu noob? Not really. A CNR can pull of around 1k dps, a Machariel somewhere in that region, so does Nightmare, so do Marauders and many of them do so in wider damage spectrum than Tengu. Even a properly fitted Drake can get close to Tengu's maximum dps output, though most people fit a Drake for massive passive tank, sacrificing most of that dps.

So the damage bonus isn't a problem, it never was, it never will be. What makes Tengu so awesome for pve is what makes missiles awesome for pve: the ability to hit a target at any range for the same damage. It doesn't matter if you're in target's face or 100 km out, you'll be doing virtually the same dps. There is no optimal, there is no falloff, you don't need to worry about transversal and tracking, you just shoot and if you have the right rigs/painters, you'll hit.

Let's compare that with Legion, for instance - up close, the Legion will tear the Tengu apart and deal more dps - but increase the distance and the Legion will have to swap crystals to get range, dropping to about 50% at 70 km. In many ways, Tengu is the "Noob's Heavy Drake" - a easy to use ship that performs admirably in most roles. It is NOT, however, the best damage dealer of the T3s, nor does it have the best tank.

As for your friends, Josef, I think they need to try more ships. I can honestly say that my fairly mediocre fitted CNR performs far better in many situations, though the Tengu does have its uses.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2012-07-18 11:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Newsflash to both of you: Tengu's dps isn't all that great.


The Tengu's DPS is absolutely amazing for its range. Yes, that one overpowered missile subsystem is the biggest reason why the Tengu is everywhere.

It's +100% dps, +50% range.

The next best subsystem is the HAM Legion with +66% dps and selectable damage types. This one is pretty good too, but the slot layout of the Legion generally sucks (3 slots left for a tank after fitting 3x BCU's).

The remaining offensive subsystems are +50% to +60% dps with the typical range/falloff/tracking bonuses.

As you can see, the Tengu is clearly outside of the normal balance.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-07-18 13:07:20 UTC
Takeshi, it really isn't that amazing for it's range. Here, a few fast (partial) compositions to show it doesn't stick out at all:

http://shrani.si/f/3k/sQ/1im1YIOm/screen-shot-2012-07-18-a.png

http://shrani.si/f/C/dl/3ySV7Rl0/screen-shot-2012-07-18-a.png

http://shrani.si/f/1v/aq/44MY5Tb/screen-shot-2012-07-18-a.png

http://shrani.si/f/1h/aE/3SA9LAoD/screen-shot-2012-07-18-a.png

As you can see, many ships can get close (even the puny Drake) or surpass it, even though it has that amazing mod. If the Tengu had the same bonus as other ships, it would be worse than Drake at dps.

So if the main advantage isn't the dps, what is it? It's the damage application. CNR has more dps and insane range comparably (227 km :p), but I dare you to try and shoot frigates with it :p

As our Ishtar example above shows, the biggest issue isn't Tengu being powerful - compared to Drake it's at about the right spot - the biggest issue is that competitive HACs (more specifically, Cerberus) are ****.

Quote:
The next best subsystem is the HAM Legion with +66% dps and selectable damage types.


HAM Legion has a completely different application, more akin to pvp HAM Drake; for PvE you'll want a laser boat, usually Pulse because even though it sacrifices range, the dps is just soooooo juicy. Then again, a blaster Proteus, mmmmm <3
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2012-07-18 13:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Takeshi, it really isn't that amazing for it's range. Here, a few fast (partial) compositions to show it doesn't stick out at all:


In the T3 cruiser group, the Tengu very much sticks out. Besides, I don't think you're helping your point with those examples. The full-gank Ishtar has a paper tank, the Rokh is a brick with tracking limitations and even the mighty Drake is just worse in every aspect. Are you honestly trying to tell me with a straight face that these ships are real alternatives to a Tengu? In some cases perhaps, but generally no.

Quote:
for PvE you'll want a laser boat, usually Pulse because even though it sacrifices range, the dps is just soooooo juicy.


A Pulse Legion like that does 618 dps at 11 km (3x HS II, Heavy Pulse II, Navy MF) is 'soooooo juicy' in your own words, but a HAM Tengu with equivalent modules that does 718 dps at 30 km 'isn't that amazing'? Well thanks for clearing that up!

PS: that Legion has a significantly worse tank too.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#86 - 2012-07-18 14:09:41 UTC
Mercury Alar wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
tengu is the hulk of pve?

ban hulks too, as they are the best miners.

hulk cannot get ice

tengu do every PVE stuff good

that's the prove


Try to solo a Blood Raider 10/10 with a tengu, let me know how that goes lol.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#87 - 2012-07-19 07:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Takeshi, it really isn't that amazing for it's range. Here, a few fast (partial) compositions to show it doesn't stick out at all:


In the T3 cruiser group, the Tengu very much sticks out


And that's what I'm saying - it doesn't. For pve, sure, but then, so does CNR compared to, say, navy Megathron, does that mean CNR should be nerfed? For pvp, for instance, I'll dare say Proteus is better. Likewise, the other two have their advantages.

Quote:
Are you honestly trying to tell me with a straight face that these ships are real alternatives to a Tengu?


No. I'm telling you - with a straight face - that it's not its dps which makes it powerful, it's a combination of factors. People oversimplify things - the above comment was directly aimed at "zomg, it's accelerated ejection bay's fault!" comment, when evidence shows contrary, that the accelerated ejection bay doesn't stick out from the crowd all that much, that the ship has other factors going for it.

Quote:
Quote:
for PvE you'll want a laser boat, usually Pulse because even though it sacrifices range, the dps is just soooooo juicy.


A Pulse Legion like that does 618 dps at 11 km (3x HS II, Heavy Pulse II, Navy MF) is 'soooooo juicy' in your own words, but a HAM Tengu with equivalent modules that does 718 dps at 30 km 'isn't that amazing'? Well thanks for clearing that up!

PS: that Legion has a significantly worse tank too.


I must have made a mistake somewhere, I'm fairly sure I saw a 900 dps figure yesterday... no matter, my point still stands - a Legion will deal around 800 dps fully equipped and using Conflagration, at around 80k ehp and 1.5k speed (though not permarunnable). A HAM tengu may get close to that speed with MWD, but can't field a buffer or it can field a buffer, but can't get that speed, not to mention that he'll have to sacrifice Rigors, giving up his ability to strike small targets.

That said, I really love to use Energy Locus Coordinator rigs with my Pulse Lasers. On a properly geared Legion, that will make your Conflagration pulses hit out to about 20km, while Scorch will have a nearly 60km optimal. Add a navy MF for mid range and that gives you an awesome damage application at all ranges. The only problem with my fit is, I need Engineering 4 implant to have enough power grid to actually pull it off, but meh, that's a small sacrifice to pay.