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A new frontier - Classic 0.0

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Jafit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-07-17 17:24:09 UTC
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
If this new nullsec was difficult to reach through a wormhole network and economically self-sufficient with no need to come back- wouldn't that be basically like opening a second shard?
Not sure if this would be too terrible, I just think that the idea is a little odd and defying one of the main ideas of eve.
On the other hand, it would be hilarious if all the mighty nullsec alliances moved away and only left the higsec carebears back, who would still be too afraid to enter the now empty "old" nullsec regions...

A second shard would be like another mirror version of our current starcluster with no interaction between them. There would definitly still be interaction and movement between the new cluster and the old, just not complete dependence like with W-space.

Charles Case wrote:
A new frontier - Pubbie 0.0

:condi:

YuuKnow wrote:
Corpmates in Test not allowed to have their own opinions?

We say things like that to each other a lot instead of saying things like 'o7 m8'. It's CFC code for "I fully support you and your brilliant ideas"
Jafit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-07-17 17:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jafit
Also I don't want this idea to be uncontroversial, most people seem to have pretty much agreed so far. Uncontroversial ideas sink to the bottom of the forums never to be seen again.

At least it's not in the feature ideas forum.
Danfen Fenix
#23 - 2012-07-17 17:28:57 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:
Jafit wrote:
I propose a new starcluster in Eve, separate from New Eden and Wormhole space:

  • A cluster of similar size to New Eden
  • 100% nullsec.
  • Conquerable stations scattered around
  • No buildable outposts
  • No jumpbridges
  • No supercaps (maybe even no capitals or cynos at all?).
  • Ihub upgradable starsystems would be okay.
  • Accessible only via unstable wormholes (to hopefully negate the blobbing power of current nullsec superpowers)
  • Allow ice and moon mining to promote self-sufficiency (unlike W-space)



So basically a 2nd server where things aren't FUBAR.

Pessimistic rant below. Don't read if you don't want to read pessimism.

The truth is that every great MMOPG was actually an interation of the preceeding MMOPG. The next developer looks back and sees all the mistakes of its predecessors, corrects or throws away what was bad, and keeps and expands what was good. The new product is a better game and usually more successful that the last.

Some would say that CCP is trying to do that with their expansions, but a problem is that some of the mistakes of the game are so big and have been in for so long that CCP doesn't have the gumption make the big, core rage-quit changes that would be needed. For example, CCP should probably completely erase supercapitals from the game as a mistake. Its fears the rage-quits of players that spent thousands of hours at this point skilling too much to do so however.

The result are three possibilities
1) we hope that someone in CCP has the gaul to withstand the rage-quits and make the needed slashes completely reversing the mistakes of the past...not likely at this point.
2) we hope that a competitor developer surfaces that has just as much graphical expertise (Eve's graphics are the best in the world IMHO) and makes an alternative to Eve with lessons learned from Eve's mistakes... no one even on the horizon atm.
3) CCP snails along with tweaks that don't really make a difference and hopes that after 10 more years of thousands of perpetual tweaks they somehow arrive to where they initially intended... where we are at now.

yk


A nice start would be CCP at least removing the ability to build supers any more. Let them die out themselves over time ? P That way everyone can keep what they have now, so they can't use 'losing thousands of hours' as a rage quittable excuse. It is on their head if they lose it or not then, and we'd probably see Supers die out/never used/become collectibles.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#24 - 2012-07-17 17:36:44 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Kick Jafit.


Corpmates in Test not allowed to have their own opinions?



Blob / zerg is a mentality even before being a game mechanic.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#25 - 2012-07-17 17:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Jafit wrote:
Also I don't want this idea to be uncontroversial, most people seem to have pretty much agreed so far. Uncontroversial ideas sink to the bottom of the forums never to be seen again.

At least it's not in the feature ideas forum.


Yet.


Danfen Fenix wrote:


A nice start would be CCP at least removing the ability to build supers any more. Let them die out themselves over time ? P That way everyone can keep what they have now, so they can't use 'losing thousands of hours' as a rage quittable excuse. It is on their head if they lose it or not then, and we'd probably see Supers die out/never used/become collectibles.


Yes, we definitely need another T2 BPO solution.




Anyway I wholeheartedly support the OP idea (which is somewhat of a copy of what I posted a year or so ago).

Less blobs or at least bearable small ships blobs is good.

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Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#26 - 2012-07-17 19:41:11 UTC
Expanding New Eden would be nice, and there are a lot of good ideas on how to do such a thing.
I personally have always liked the idea of new systems not being accessible to the current universe via stargate until a stargate is built, and that building a stargate should take months. This would require the group building it to have a solid hold on the system the gate is being built in.

Self sufficiency would be important as well, depending on how these new regions are cut off from New Eden until they open their first jump gate.

Exotic minerals (hey, remember that crap you have to mine in the newbie tutorial?) could be on the bill of materials required for building the stargates, and only found in the new systems. This would create a demand for mining and mining related equipment in the new regions.

Between the Alliance matches on Sunday this past weekend, the future of POS and POS mechanics was brought up. Some of the ideas they covered included making it easier for people to set up their own POS. Vast new regions of 0.0 could take advantage of that.

The biggest challenge I can see with it is making it self sufficient to the point that people are willing to say "hey, let's move our corp to one of the new regions". Even if you take the "power bloc" alliances out of the picture, people are still going to shy away from it if they don't have access to the things they need to replace ships that get blown up.


Profit favors the prepared
Fiona Tsero
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-07-17 19:54:22 UTC
Or make a one-way wormhole that lets nothing bigger than a Battleship/industrial through, and have people start a new economy on the other side.

Once you go through, you can never go back.
Ginger Barbarella
#28 - 2012-07-17 20:40:06 UTC
ITT: old vet whines about sliced bread ruining civilization.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2012-07-17 22:51:04 UTC
Topic "A new frontier - Classic 0.0" moved to Features and Ideas - ISD Type40

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Jafit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-07-17 23:08:23 UTC
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
Topic "A new frontier - Classic 0.0" moved to Features and Ideas - ISD Type40


OH GOD DAMN SON OF A *****
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#31 - 2012-07-17 23:13:20 UTC
We are discussing such an idea in the Missions and Complex Forum.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=131724

Basically we are discussing opening up Fringe Space in a solar system. Fringe Space is the space in each solar system where you burn out so far and want to keep going but for what purpose?

If we can get CCP to add Fringe Space to all solar systems where the security status of Fringe Space is 0.0 and interconnects ALL solar systems then new systems in EvE would be created.
Busta Rock
The DawnSoarers
#32 - 2012-07-18 05:40:16 UTC
cross posted from the fringe exploration thread:

easier option.

back in the original EvE lore, it was stated that all star systems that were capabel of using stargates were in fact the primary stars of multi-star systems - ie every gated system in the eve universe has at least one distant stellar companion out 1000au or more. how about opening up those far companion stars to players?

what I'm thinking is this:


these systems would be accessible via warp (from the primary where the gates are) or cyno jump only. warping to one would take a VERY long warp, possibly with multiple stops for cap recharge, or the fitting of several capacitor batteries in the mid slots.

while all such systems would be effectively 0.0 space (CONCORD doesnt fly out that far), sov would not be permitted over far companion stars to low-sec or high sec systems, and would be covered by sov of the system primary in 0.0. stations would be prohibited however because the stellar environments of distant companions can be somewhat... unstable.

because of the substantial lag of communications due to distance, local in the space around these distant companions would be either delayed or work as current WH local does.



you want fringe space? how's THAT?
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-07-18 08:09:03 UTC
+1 the idea.

As an idea of story line, the new region is actually a newly discovered Sansha Colony. A place where they are launching their incursions from. The region itself is isolated for many reasons and far from jump range of any other region in New Eden.

All the stations will be sansha, all the gates will be sansha. Its only accessable from active incursion sites in low/nullsec where the Supercarrier has spawned. This will make logistics to New Eden a pain, and promote self sufficiency.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-07-18 08:16:42 UTC
Ohh Yeah wrote:
Yeah I honestly believe that doubling or tripling the amount of 0.0 space would be a good move.

It'd be too much space for the current power blocs to hold - they'd overextend themselves like the Romans or whatever. There would be more smaller entities holding smaller chunks of space, and the 0.0 population would be significantly less dense. I think less density is a good thing, as it promotes small-gang PvP and combats blobiness.

Presently, any major alliance can deploy a full-scale supercapital fleet to any region of 0.0 with a day's warning, and then actually move those ships in two hours or so. If you doubled the amount of 0.0 space, this would be more difficult, and small fringe, ghetto regions of space with small groups holding two or three systems would arise.

I think it would be more exciting to have a group of 100 people defending your 3 systems on the edge of space from another equally small group, rather than sitting and hoping that the CFC or whatever doesn't dogpile you out of your space.

As for your suggestions, I don't think new space needs to have limited supers/capitals/POSes. The 0.0 you're "remembering" is still from a time with capitals, but it was before 0.0 reached the population it has now. Then, a 700 man fight was a big deal. Now, both sides can each field 700 in about any timezone. Capitals and supers make for interesting content when they aren't so tightly concentrated. The population of EVE (especially those living in 0.0) has expanded rapidly, but the space they occupy has not. This has resulted in ******, un-fun blobs because people are so tightly-packed.


Totally agree. A new type of space isn't necessary, just double the diameter of the EVE cluster and make stations destructible. Death to 0.0 urban sprawl! Also you should probably re-work the way ihub upgrades work but that should probably be a thread of its own.

I, too, really miss the way 0.0 used to feel remote and sparsely populated. Now it feels like you can't go more than two jumps in nullsec without finding another station system full of ratters. Remember when there were only a handful of stations per region and ratters / miners / whatever were all spread out across these lonely expanses of space rather than clustering into station systems?

Better days.
Jafit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-07-18 08:43:26 UTC
Busta Rock wrote:
you want fringe space? how's THAT?


I think that this idea makes no sense, is unrelated to the thread, and adds nothing new to the game.

Features & Ideas Discussion Roll

Ganthrithor wrote:
Totally agree. A new type of space isn't necessary, just double the diameter of the EVE cluster and make stations destructible. Death to 0.0 urban sprawl! Also you should probably re-work the way ihub upgrades work but that should probably be a thread of its own.

I, too, really miss the way 0.0 used to feel remote and sparsely populated. Now it feels like you can't go more than two jumps in nullsec without finding another station system full of ratters. Remember when there were only a handful of stations per region and ratters / miners / whatever were all spread out across these lonely expanses of space rather than clustering into station systems?

Better days.


The logistical challenges of getting out to a ring of regions further out than current nullsec are only going to favour the existing nullsec powers rather than giving anyone else a chance to get established. You still have their blobs and their supercaps to contend with.

The introduction of the drone regions didn't exactly accomplish much. All that happened was a big Russian power bloc were able to establish themselves there and build supers without getting bothered by anyone, before steamrolling the old NC which was already rotting from the inside.

Adding new regions in this cluster has been done and it hasn't fixed anything because you still have the problems caused by supercapsm, blobs, and building stations everywhere. We need a separate cluster without supercaps.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-07-18 09:09:09 UTC
Busta Rock wrote:
because of the substantial lag of communications due to distance, local in the space around these distant companions would be either delayed or work as current WH local does.



Evelopedia Article: FTL communications wrote:
The process was thus the following: A byte of information is mapped on an initial condition of the logistic map leading to a chaotic attractor. This noisy sequence is then used to modulate the measurements done on a sequence of entangled particles. At the same time on the other side, measurements are made on the particles and a noise sequence is extracted. Maximum entropy analysis is then done to determine the initial condition from which this series has been generated and thus map it back to a given byte of information. Note that in this case, the noisy sequence sent is totally uncorrelated to the one measured. What they do have in common is to be from the same chaotic attractor, and that is the information that actually gets transmitted instantly, regardless of distance.


http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/FTL_communications

Clearly another lame excuse is needed.

Local is generated by the information cataloged by the stargate that you pass through when you enter a system. Lets say that the dust clouds seperating the two stars cause a momentary black out period and effectively cut off you communications linked with the stargate network for a few seconds, dropping your data from local. Simply broadcasting/transmitting will reconnect you to the nearest stargate.

Personally I think that it should be this way when you enter via WH or Cyno and that your are only put into local chat if you show up on grid with a stargate or station, or transmit on the local frequency.

Gerrick

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#37 - 2012-07-18 09:34:42 UTC
A new region of space has been discovered, un-touched by anyone until now. 1,000 new systems without any NPC anything.

A cloud of cosmic radiation has made this new region unstable, making jump drives unusable. Also, due to the nature of the radiation, the only way to get into the region is through a giant experimental acceleration gate that will fling you into a random system on the fringes of this new region. It's a one-way trip.

Sounds good to me.
HalfArse
Wixo Trading Co.
#38 - 2012-07-18 12:31:35 UTC
one way trip stuff is crap - however an enthusiastic +1 to new 0.0 space with no caps and no building stations and VERY few conquerable ones.

Should be alot of routes to the new space (ALOT) and not just into existing 0.0 but also to lowsec, high sec etc etc - spam entrances everywhere to make defence very hard - forcing corps allainces to guard the space they actually use and live in rather than owning massive expanses of stuff they dont really want just cos they can.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-07-18 13:07:15 UTC
I think station sprawl could be fixed by letting outposts be exploded.

0.0 just needs more space and a better system for distributing resources to prevent tons of people being crammed into small spaces.

Personally I think it would be awesome (though possibly technically un-feasible) to extend the cluster by such a large factor that it would take appreciable time to be crossed even with jump drives. Currently it's almost impossible to get more than a few JDC V carrier jumps of anywhere else. The galaxy just isn't very big.

If CCP wanted to discourage blobbing / increase the amount of time required to move caps they could simply make the "spiral arms" of the galactic extension farther apart than they are in the existing part, creating voids between them that are too large for capital jumps (or at least supercap ones) and forcing big ships to travel a long route around them.
Jafit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-07-18 15:13:05 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
I think station sprawl could be fixed by letting outposts be exploded.


I'm all for station explosions, but again that very strongly favours supercaps and blobs, as do all other structure shooting based activities.

Ganthrithor wrote:
If CCP wanted to discourage blobbing / increase the amount of time required to move caps they could simply make the "spiral arms" of the galactic extension farther apart than they are in the existing part, creating voids between them that are too large for capital jumps (or at least supercap ones) and forcing big ships to travel a long route around them.


So you can have supers and sov in your own region and sit comfortably knowing that you're very hard for hostile supers to get anywhere near you? How is anyone supposed to invade you?

Also, again, we have already tried having regions of space separated by gaps of space. The drone regions are completely surrounded by void, the only ways in are through Cache or Great Wildlands with a JDC5 titan
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