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Pay to win

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Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#381 - 2012-07-17 22:07:24 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Pay to win implies that you pay real life money for an advantage that can not be gained by ingame means. As there is literally nothing in EVE that can be gained by only spending real life money, your argument is moot.

Yes, but in his words not having to grind it is "pretty win" which made me actually laugh at someone's stupidity for the first time in ages.


Because you enjoy grinding?

Because for all definitions of "win" this is not true.

I have no idea what you guys do to earn ISK but I don't undock to earn ISK unless I expect to get a billion or more for my time.

I pity that you consider anything in EvE a grind when there are a near endless stream of ways to acquire things without grinding or paying.

In fact, it is the only game where you can completely avoid all grinding and still be in a situation where you are able to win, without paying.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#382 - 2012-07-17 22:09:04 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Most sane people just know that paying to get an advantage is, well, paying to get an advantage, which, in internet lingo, is known as P2W

Yet in 20 pages you have not been able to show WHAT advantage you can seemingly acquire, as otherwise I would agree.

Paying for something which is the same as what someone else got by playing the game does not make it give you an in game advantage.

You can argue that not spending the time is an advantage TO YOU, and I will agree here also, as that is what PLEX enables, but you still do not get an advantage in-game from buying ISK via PLEX.

"Pay to win" by any definition of it, requires that payment equates to a better chance at victory, which it simply cannot do in EvE.



An advantage is not an advantage, I think I get it.

You're getting closer.

Now try to see which advantage is towards your in game chances of winning or not, and you *might* just start to see reason.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#383 - 2012-07-17 22:10:19 UTC
Thread has been cleaned of off topic posts and personal insults - ISD Type40

Whilst I understand that some topics can bring out the passion in people, can we please refrain from personal attacks and off topic posting as it does nothing to further a good conversation. Thank you kindly Smile

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#384 - 2012-07-17 22:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Khanh'rhh wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Pay to win implies that you pay real life money for an advantage that can not be gained by ingame means. As there is literally nothing in EVE that can be gained by only spending real life money, your argument is moot.

Yes, but in his words not having to grind it is "pretty win" which made me actually laugh at someone's stupidity for the first time in ages.


Because you enjoy grinding?

Because for all definitions of "win" this is not true.

I have no idea what you guys do to earn ISK but I don't undock to earn ISK unless I expect to get a billion or more for my time.

I pity that you consider anything in EvE a grind when there are a near endless stream of ways to acquire things without grinding or paying.

In fact, it is the only game where you can completely avoid all grinding and still be in a situation where you are able to win, without paying.


I trade. And you pretend to?

ISD TYPE40 wrote:
Thread has been cleaned of off topic posts and personal insults - ISD Type40


What?Sad

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#385 - 2012-07-17 22:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
Khanh'rhh wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Most sane people just know that paying to get an advantage is, well, paying to get an advantage, which, in internet lingo, is known as P2W

Yet in 20 pages you have not been able to show WHAT advantage you can seemingly acquire, as otherwise I would agree.

Paying for something which is the same as what someone else got by playing the game does not make it give you an in game advantage.

You can argue that not spending the time is an advantage TO YOU, and I will agree here also, as that is what PLEX enables, but you still do not get an advantage in-game from buying ISK via PLEX.

"Pay to win" by any definition of it, requires that payment equates to a better chance at victory, which it simply cannot do in EvE.



An advantage is not an advantage, I think I get it.

You're getting closer.

Now try to see which advantage is towards your in game chances of winning or not, and you *might* just start to see reason.



Wait I got better

P2W mostly happens in F2P games, right?
So P2W could be considered as the subscription fee of F2P games
EvE is F2P since you can do 500m isk in 10 mn
So when you pay your subscription fees in EvE, through isk, you're basically Paying2W, since the subscription fees of F2P games are the P2W fees?


Did I get my logic gates correct, and linked random stuff to pretend I'm right? Do I belong amongst your kind?
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#386 - 2012-07-17 22:16:12 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:
I trade. And you pretend to?

Do you enjoy it?

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#387 - 2012-07-17 22:17:38 UTC
DrSmegma wrote:

I trade. And you pretend to?


I've always found that you can make pretty silly ISK/hr trading if you just keep your grubbies off of it. The down side is that this limits the total amount of ISK you can pull in over a certain amount of real time days. But if you don't have huge ISK needs it works great.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#388 - 2012-07-17 22:20:52 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Do I got my logic gates correct? Do I belong amongst your kind?

No, since you make a series of assumptions, then use them to base conclusions.

"P2W mostly happens in F2P games, right?"
Mostly, but nothing says it needs to only happen in those games. Many games from the app store come with a purchase price and yet still contain pay to win elements.

"So P2W could be considered as the subscription fee of F2P games"
No, it is the means by which the company generates revenue. Since it is a) optional and b) doesn't relate to whether your account is valid or not it can't be seen as a subscription.

"EvE is F2P since you can do 500m isk in 10 mn"
EvE is subscription based. Whether you pay your subscription or you get someone else to pay your subscription and give them ISK for it (via PLEX) one month of game time (one subscription unit) is always consumed.

"So when you pay your subscription fees in EvE, through isk, you're basically Paying2W"
No, you are playing to play the game, whether you pay for this by ISK or $ makes no difference to the game.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#389 - 2012-07-17 22:23:07 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Do I got my logic gates correct? Do I belong amongst your kind?

No, since you make a series of assumptions, then use them to base conclusions.

"P2W mostly happens in F2P games, right?"
Mostly, but nothing says it needs to only happen in those games. Many games from the app store come with a purchase price and yet still contain pay to win elements.

"So P2W could be considered as the subscription fee of F2P games"
No, it is the means by which the company generates revenue. Since it is a) optional and b) doesn't relate to whether your account is valid or not it can't be seen as a subscription.

"EvE is F2P since you can do 500m isk in 10 mn"
EvE is subscription based. Whether you pay your subscription or you get someone else to pay your subscription and give them ISK for it (via PLEX) one month of game time (one subscription unit) is always consumed.

"So when you pay your subscription fees in EvE, through isk, you're basically Paying2W"
No, you are playing to play the game, whether you pay for this by ISK or $ makes no difference to the game.



Oh really damn what a shame I thought I was beginning to understand how you people reason.

Can you link me to a definition of P2W btw?

Also, where it says that alts were forbidden in EvE before timecodes and PLEX, I don't think you're graced me with that info.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#390 - 2012-07-17 22:23:56 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Khanh'rhh wrote:
DrSmegma wrote:
I trade. And you pretend to?

Do you enjoy it?


Of course not.

Do you enjoy Excel Online?

But if I log in for two hours per month I make enough to be able to afford a PLEX by giving 500M ISK to some guy who spends more $$$ on Eve than me. And that guy is a winner, because I work for him and he didn't have to spend that time in Eve.

I suppose in the meanwhile he worked for an hour and spent another hour somewhere on a field playing with butterflies.

I may add: I make a PLEX in 2 hours because I'm quite good at what I'm doing and have some investment capital. There are many traders who earn less than me (and of course some others who earn more).

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
YuuKnow
The Scope
#391 - 2012-07-17 22:25:32 UTC  |  Edited by: YuuKnow
Was this whole thread bait?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#392 - 2012-07-17 22:31:04 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Most sane people just know that paying to get an advantage is, well, paying to get an advantage, which, in internet lingo, is known as P2W

Yet in 20 pages you have not been able to show WHAT advantage you can seemingly acquire, as otherwise I would agree.

Paying for something which is the same as what someone else got by playing the game does not make it give you an in game advantage.

You can argue that not spending the time is an advantage TO YOU, and I will agree here also, as that is what PLEX enables, but you still do not get an advantage in-game from buying ISK via PLEX.

"Pay to win" by any definition of it, requires that payment equates to a better chance at victory, which it simply cannot do in EvE.



An advantage is not an advantage, I think I get it.

You're getting closer.

Now try to see which advantage is towards your in game chances of winning or not, and you *might* just start to see reason.



Wait I got better

P2W mostly happens in F2P games, right?
So P2W could be considered as the subscription fee of F2P games
EvE is F2P since you can do 500m isk in 10 mn
So when you pay your subscription fees in EvE, through isk, you're basically Paying2W, since the subscription fees of F2P games are the P2W fees?


Did I get my logic gates correct, and linked random stuff to pretend I'm right? Do I belong amongst your kind?


EVE is a subscription based game. If everyone used PLEX for that subscription, people wouldn't be buying them from CCP & we'd ultimately have to revert to paying with real money. EVE can be free to play for people through the purchase of PLEX on the market thanks to the people that buy PLEX to trade for ingame money. No matter how you try to twist it, EVE is still a subscription based game as CCP are receiving the payments for each account.

Free to play games have optional items that provide ingame advantages over other players that just play for free. Can you provide evidence of such an ingame advantage in EVE that can only be gained by the player paying with real money & not isk?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#393 - 2012-07-17 22:33:53 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:

Free to play games have optional items that provide ingame advantages over other players that just play for free. Can you provide evidence of such an ingame advantage in EVE that can only be gained by the player paying with real money & not isk?


Monacles, because all real forum trolls have them.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#394 - 2012-07-17 22:37:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Liang Nuren wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

Free to play games have optional items that provide ingame advantages over other players that just play for free. Can you provide evidence of such an ingame advantage in EVE that can only be gained by the player paying with real money & not isk?


Monacles, because all real forum trolls have them.

-Liang


Please tell me all about how vanity items give an ingame advantage.

EDIT: They can also be purchased by players through ingame means.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#395 - 2012-07-17 22:38:21 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

Free to play games have optional items that provide ingame advantages over other players that just play for free. Can you provide evidence of such an ingame advantage in EVE that can only be gained by the player paying with real money & not isk?


Monacles, because all real forum trolls have them.

-Liang


Please tell me all about how vanity items give an ingame advantage.


Forum trolling is a game all of its own.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#396 - 2012-07-17 22:38:23 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

Free to play games have optional items that provide ingame advantages over other players that just play for free. Can you provide evidence of such an ingame advantage in EVE that can only be gained by the player paying with real money & not isk?


Monacles, because all real forum trolls have them.

-Liang


Please tell me all about how vanity items give an ingame advantage.


Pretty sure he was making a joke. Blink

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#397 - 2012-07-17 22:39:28 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:

EVE is a subscription based game. If everyone used PLEX for that subscription, people wouldn't be buying them from CCP & we'd ultimately have to revert to paying with real money. EVE can be free to play for people through the purchase of PLEX on the market thanks to the people that buy PLEX to trade for ingame money. No matter how you try to twist it, EVE is still a subscription based game as CCP are receiving the payments for each account.

Free to play games have optional items that provide ingame advantages over other players that just play for free. Can you provide evidence of such an ingame advantage in EVE that can only be gained by the player paying with real money & not isk?



Can you provide a widely accepted definition of P2W? not the one you share with trollpia and the other guy with an unpronounceable name, in order to have EvE pass as not-P2W.

I googled, and found none set in rock, even soft. I must now assume I was right all along.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#398 - 2012-07-17 22:46:44 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

EVE is a subscription based game. If everyone used PLEX for that subscription, people wouldn't be buying them from CCP & we'd ultimately have to revert to paying with real money. EVE can be free to play for people through the purchase of PLEX on the market thanks to the people that buy PLEX to trade for ingame money. No matter how you try to twist it, EVE is still a subscription based game as CCP are receiving the payments for each account.

Free to play games have optional items that provide ingame advantages over other players that just play for free. Can you provide evidence of such an ingame advantage in EVE that can only be gained by the player paying with real money & not isk?



Can you provide a widely accepted definition of P2W? not the one you share with trollpia and the other guy with an unpronounceable name, in order to have EvE pass as not-P2W.

I googled, and found none set in rock, even soft. I must now assume I was right all along.


The most commonly accepted definition for pay to win is free to play.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#399 - 2012-07-17 22:47:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Corina Jarr
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

EVE is a subscription based game. If everyone used PLEX for that subscription, people wouldn't be buying them from CCP & we'd ultimately have to revert to paying with real money. EVE can be free to play for people through the purchase of PLEX on the market thanks to the people that buy PLEX to trade for ingame money. No matter how you try to twist it, EVE is still a subscription based game as CCP are receiving the payments for each account.

Free to play games have optional items that provide ingame advantages over other players that just play for free. Can you provide evidence of such an ingame advantage in EVE that can only be gained by the player paying with real money & not isk?



Can you provide a widely accepted definition of P2W? not the one you share with trollpia and the other guy with an unpronounceable name, in order to have EvE pass as not-P2W.

I googled, and found none set in rock, even soft. I must now assume I was right all along.

No you must assume that there is no truly accepted definition and move on.


Your definition makes every game P2W (defeating the point of a term for it anyway), whereas the one used by myself, Tippia, Malcanus, and a significant amount of others (with mild variations within) makes it not so broad.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#400 - 2012-07-17 22:49:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Oh really damn what a shame I thought I was beginning to understand how you people reason.

Can you link me to a definition of P2W btw?

Some picked randomly from Google searches:

"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else"

"things like experience boosters, damage boosters, and similar consumable items that can only be gotten by paying money for them"

"found as consumable items in most games in a shop that are not already being granted by an NPC or some sort"

[Developers have come to realise that] "the first and most obvious thing that can be done to make items like these acceptable (not pay to win) in a cash-shop is to provide a way to earn them in-game"

"the items with the best stats don't drop and you can't trade them, you can only buy them"

I mean, I could go on, but the narrative is pretty clear.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,