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Pay to win

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DrSmegma
Smegma United
#361 - 2012-07-17 21:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Corina Jarr wrote:

People can make 500M regularly in less than ten minutes.


Yes. But those 10 minutes in which they make 500M are usually surrounded by hours of fitting ships, chatting to people to coordinate, flying around, scanning, and less-fortunate activities. P

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#362 - 2012-07-17 21:33:56 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Khergit Deserters wrote:
I still don't see how that's not paying to win. Consider as an example a wardec situation between corps. Attrition has wiped out each side's best ships. Corp A spends $100 RL money to buy isk (PLEX). It equips a new insta-fleet. Corp B's members are poor instant ramen eaters with no extra cash to spend on EVE. The can only fly the ships they still have, which are their crappier ones.
Who's going to have the advantage in this war? And where did it come from? In-game skill, or out-of-game cash? That sounds like pay to win to me.

Then what happens when corp C gets involved, and corp C is Goonswarm and can afford to send a 1000 man fleet indefinately to kurb stomp you, with everything payed for by items and materials acquired ingame?

You're using a flawed microcosm to try to draw larger conclusions, which is why it "looks" like it to you but is anything other than that in reality.

Again, you are describing a situation where someone has paid to avoid needing to acquire something in-game, and you are not acquiring something anyone else cannot also get WITHOUT paying.

Tell me how it can be "pay to win" when it's possible to NOT pay and actually be in a better position?

Well, if we're going to add infinite permutations and combinations, we might as well say Warren Buffet is in one of the corps. And he he uses RL dollars to buy PLEX isk to hire every dang alliance in the game to go after the other corp. And while he's at it, he uses PLEX isk to buy every dang ship, mod and missile currently available in all of New Eden. (He can hire a staff of 10,000 assistants to to that for him, btw). So the dollars-broke corp can't even buy replacement equipment. Still not pay to win?

The point is, turning dollars into isk can give a player an advantage over another player who doesn't turn dollars into isk. No matter how many complexities and permutations we add into the scenario, the extra isk are an absolute advantage.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#363 - 2012-07-17 21:36:20 UTC
People seem to forget scams are the easiest isk maker.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#364 - 2012-07-17 21:37:03 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:

Officers spawn everyday, that's true.

And you can chain 24/7, how convenient!


Pretty sure a consistent 500m / 10 minutes is either trading or scamming. 500M/day with 10 minutes updating orders is pretty legit I'd say.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#365 - 2012-07-17 21:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyress
You aren't going to get any of these people to admit anything, you should give it up. Lets just say you can use RL money to buy plex to get past the need to earn skills and equipment, or alternate account funding in game like someone who doesn't buy plex with RL money. They will tell you thats not PayTo Win and you won't get them to admit it is no matter what you say. The question is moot really since Eve is an unfair universe to start with and no one can ever really win it, its just a survival thing.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#366 - 2012-07-17 21:42:11 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Tippia wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Okay, I'll bite. What were you saying? What is your point?
My point is that your argument basically reduces down to “numbers ≡ payment.” Every example you've provided has been one where larger numbers beat smaller numbers. Now, setting aside for a moment that this is not necessarily true, and just accepting the naïve assumption that numbers is an absolute advantage, the problem with this equivalence is that it's complete nonsense.

If numbers ≡ payment, then every multiplayer game would be P2W: a quake team with more numbers has obviously paid more; their advantage comes from payment.

Now, as you rightly point out (and which I've stated from the very beginning), this is clearly bunk. Quake is not P2W. Quake is a game where unbalanced teams will create an unbalanced game, and the unbalancing factor is the numbers, not the money people spent to play the game and stack their team.

Therefore, we should reject the notion that numbers ≡ payment.

Now, let's go back to EVE. What is it that wins in your precious scenarios? Numbers. Not payment. The advantage of numbers can be had without payment. You don't need alts to have numbers. Any advantage that one team brings to the table that they might have paid for in some way (alts, PLEXed blingships, high-skilled characters etc) can be had by the other team without the same expenditure of cash.


Numbers in EvE are made up of alts, yes. Scout alts, offgrid booster alts, remote rep alts. Those accounts have to be funded.

You seek to link this assertion with other multiplayer games, in which you cannot reliably control more than one character, and in which, therefore, it does not happen, in order to imply that I think that numbers = payment for all multiplayer games, when I only say this is valid in EvE (the DAOC example had more to do with remote rep/booster alt, not numbers/fighting force)

This is only true in EvE, can you understand that?

You're the king of fallacies. Here is this one. "If A is true for B, and B belongs to X ensemble, then we should infer that A is true for all of X."
A being: "numbers= payment"
B being: " EvE"
X being: "Mmos"


As facts would stubbornly have it, numbers more often than not = win in EvE, and it's easier to have them with little to zero maintenance alts which provide bonuses, plus with easy to micro alts, than with RL people who can have conflicting schedules/interests.

It's also easier to fund them through RL money, for reasons mentioned times and times again.




Tippia wrote:
Quote:
But it's more efficient to fork out RL money, for reasons mentioned times and times again. Hence, P2W.
That doesn't make it P2W. It just makes it RL convenient for RL cash. We're back at the entertainment level. It's not P2W for the same reason as buying EVE on Steam or directly from CCP rather than slogging it all the way to the local Games store and dosing yourself with expensive dopamines to not punch the sales critters in the mouth is not P2W.

…not to mention that it's not necessarily more efficient to fork out RL money to begin with, as has been explained time and time again.


What does it have to do with entertainment? Is convenience entertainment?

Convenience of paying with RL money, in this case, frees up game time to actually learn to get better at PvP rather than do isk-related stuff in order to fund your alts. Also more fun and allows for more freedom ingame, because more isk.

Which all betters your chances at winning. Hence, P2W.


These said advantages can also be gained with out paying RL money. Hence not pay to win.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#367 - 2012-07-17 21:43:31 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Numbers in EvE are made up of alts
…and other players. Alts are optional and anything you get from them can be had without them. Alts are not P2W for that simple reason: paying does not give you any special advantage that can't be had through other means.

Quote:
You seek to link this assertion with other multiplayer games, in which you cannot reliably control more than one character, and in which, therefore, it does not happen, in order to imply that I think that numbers = payment.
No. You already imply that numbers ≡ payment by equating numbers with alts and equating alts to P2W as above. I'm showing that this is a silly stance by showing what such an equivalence would mean if that's what P2W entails. It's not true in EVE and it's not true in other games for the same reasons: because it's the numbers that count, not the payment.

Quote:
You're the king of fallacies. Here is this one.
Good thing, then, that I'm not making that argument.
So no, the crown should go to you and your avalance of red herrings, strawmen, and ad nauseams.

Quote:
As facts would stubbornly have it, numbers more often than not = win in EvE, and it's easier to have them with little to zero maintenance alts which provide bonuses
…which still doesn't make it P2W since you can have the exact same bonuses and advantages without the alts and without the “payment” they represent to you. Payment that doesn't lead to special advantages is not P2W.

Quote:
What does it have to do with entertainment?
It's the same level: RL to RL. Entertainment is you paying RL money to have RL fun. Convenience is you paying RL money to do less RL work.

None of the things you've listed in this thread are special advantages you get just because you paid. Thus, none of them are P2W.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#368 - 2012-07-17 21:44:11 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:

These said advantages can also be gained with out paying RL money. Hence not pay to win.


But it's more convenient to pay them with RL money, and frees up resources ingame (time and isk), to get better at winning. Hence, P2W.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#369 - 2012-07-17 21:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Zyress wrote:
You aren't going to get any of these people to admit anything, you should give it up. Lets just say you can use RL money to buy plex to get past the need to earn skills and equipment, or alternate account funding in game like someone who doesn't buy plex with RL money. They will tell you thats not PayTo Win
…largely because no-one can demonstrate any kind of “win” that the payment generates that couldn't be had without paying for it.

EpicFailTroll wrote:
But it's more convenient to pay them with RL money, and frees up resources ingame (time and isk)
…which still doesn't mean you win anything, and which doesn't provide anything that can't be had without paying. Thus, no P2W.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#370 - 2012-07-17 21:55:03 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

These said advantages can also be gained with out paying RL money. Hence not pay to win.


But it's more convenient to pay them with RL money, and frees up resources ingame (time and isk), to get better at winning. Hence, P2W.

"Pay to win" needs to essentially exist where payment is means you are more likely to win than someone who has not payed. This is not true of convenience.

As said on page 2 of this discussion, paying to avoid grinding is not paying to win as no definition of "win" is equal to "lowered convenience" as per the definition:
Quote:
verb (used without object)
1.
to finish first in a race, contest, or the like.
2.
to succeed by striving or effort: He applied for a scholarship and won.
3.
to gain the victory; overcome an adversary: The home team won.


So if you can please, once again, demonstrate how you can pay money to make winning (as so defined) more likely we will have a debatable. All we have here is people pointing out that you are wrong for 20 pages and you *still* failing to see clear logic placed in front of you.

We must conclude you are either trolling or very bad at logic.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#371 - 2012-07-17 21:55:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Zyress wrote:
You aren't going to get any of these people to admit anything, you should give it up. Lets just say you can use RL money to buy plex to get past the need to earn skills and equipment, or alternate account funding in game like someone who doesn't buy plex with RL money. They will tell you thats not PayTo Win
…largely because no-one can demonstrate any kind of “win” that the payment generates that couldn't be had without paying for it.


But you can just pay for it, hence, P2W


Tippia wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
But it's more convenient to pay them with RL money, and frees up resources ingame (time and isk)
…which still doesn't mean you win anything, and which doesn't provide anything that can't be had without paying. Thus, no P2W.


It wins you time, time that can be spent at getting better ingame, i.e. learning to win. Hence, P2W.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#372 - 2012-07-17 21:57:19 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

These said advantages can also be gained with out paying RL money. Hence not pay to win.


But it's more convenient to pay them with RL money, and frees up resources ingame (time and isk), to get better at winning. Hence, P2W.

You are talking about opportunity cost. This can exist with or without pay to win, and is not evidence pay to win exists.

You could easily argue that NOT paying for EvE means your significant other accepts you playing EvE more, and so gives you more time to play it, and ergo it is pay to lose.

You seem to fail to understand the issue of specific examples vs bigger picture thinking.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#373 - 2012-07-17 21:59:03 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Zyress wrote:
You aren't going to get any of these people to admit anything, you should give it up. Lets just say you can use RL money to buy plex to get past the need to earn skills and equipment, or alternate account funding in game like someone who doesn't buy plex with RL money. They will tell you thats not PayTo Win
…largely because no-one can demonstrate any kind of “win” that the payment generates that couldn't be had without paying for it.


But you can just pay for it, hence, P2W


Tippia wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
But it's more convenient to pay them with RL money, and frees up resources ingame (time and isk)
…which still doesn't mean you win anything, and which doesn't provide anything that can't be had without paying. Thus, no P2W.


It wins you time, time that can be spent at getting better ingame, i.e. learning to win. Hence, P2W.


Pay to win implies that you pay real life money for an advantage that can not be gained by ingame means. As there is literally nothing in EVE that can be gained by only spending real life money, your argument is moot.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#374 - 2012-07-17 22:00:12 UTC
ITT losers fighting about winning

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#375 - 2012-07-17 22:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
Khanh'rhh wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:

These said advantages can also be gained with out paying RL money. Hence not pay to win.


But it's more convenient to pay them with RL money, and frees up resources ingame (time and isk), to get better at winning. Hence, P2W.

"Pay to win" needs to essentially exist where payment is means you are more likely to win than someone who has not payed. This is not true of convenience.

As said on page 2 of this discussion, paying to avoid grinding is not paying to win as no definition of "win" is equal to "lowered convenience" as per the definition:
Quote:
verb (used without object)
1.
to finish first in a race, contest, or the like.
2.
to succeed by striving or effort: He applied for a scholarship and won.
3.
to gain the victory; overcome an adversary: The home team won.


So if you can please, once again, demonstrate how you can pay money to make winning (as so defined) more likely we will have a debatable. All we have here is people pointing out that you are wrong for 20 pages and you *still* failing to see clear logic placed in front of you.

We must conclude you are either trolling or very bad at logic.


Your definition of P2W is pretty biased and placed in a tunnel-vision. 20 pages and you're still there.

Most sane people just know that paying to get an advantage is, well, paying to get an advantage, which, in internet lingo, is known as P2W.

Most sane people also don't read this thread where I get dragged down to unbeknownst levels of stupidity, and helplessly witness hypocritical snipping, faulty logic gates, and rhetoric 101. I am a masochist, I don't mind.


Nobody read this, why do you argue with me? I'm a troll, it says in the name.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#376 - 2012-07-17 22:01:45 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Pay to win implies that you pay real life money for an advantage that can not be gained by ingame means. As there is literally nothing in EVE that can be gained by only spending real life money, your argument is moot.

Yes, but in his words not having to grind it is "pretty win" which made me actually laugh at someone's stupidity for the first time in ages.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

DrSmegma
Smegma United
#377 - 2012-07-17 22:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: DrSmegma
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Pay to win implies that you pay real life money for an advantage that can not be gained by ingame means. As there is literally nothing in EVE that can be gained by only spending real life money, your argument is moot.

Yes, but in his words not having to grind it is "pretty win" which made me actually laugh at someone's stupidity for the first time in ages.


Because you enjoy grinding? I'm pretty sure grinding in an online game is losing. Might be different in your world.. maybe that's the problem here..

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#378 - 2012-07-17 22:04:54 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Most sane people just know that paying to get an advantage is, well, paying to get an advantage, which, in internet lingo, is known as P2W

Yet in 20 pages you have not been able to show WHAT advantage you can seemingly acquire, as otherwise I would agree.

Paying for something which is the same as what someone else got by playing the game does not make it give you an in game advantage.

You can argue that not spending the time is an advantage TO YOU, and I will agree here also, as that is what PLEX enables, but you still do not get an advantage in-game from buying ISK via PLEX.

"Pay to win" by any definition of it, requires that payment equates to a better chance at victory, which it simply cannot do in EvE.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#379 - 2012-07-17 22:05:13 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:


Pay to win implies that you pay real life money for an advantage that can not be gained by ingame means. As there is literally nothing in EVE that can be gained by only spending real life money, your argument is moot.


Oh damn really?

Can you explain it to me one more time, I'm not sure I got it ?
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#380 - 2012-07-17 22:06:19 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Most sane people just know that paying to get an advantage is, well, paying to get an advantage, which, in internet lingo, is known as P2W

Yet in 20 pages you have not been able to show WHAT advantage you can seemingly acquire, as otherwise I would agree.

Paying for something which is the same as what someone else got by playing the game does not make it give you an in game advantage.

You can argue that not spending the time is an advantage TO YOU, and I will agree here also, as that is what PLEX enables, but you still do not get an advantage in-game from buying ISK via PLEX.

"Pay to win" by any definition of it, requires that payment equates to a better chance at victory, which it simply cannot do in EvE.



An advantage is not an advantage, I think I get it.