EVE General Discussion

You can acquire standings legitimately too..... When will you realize that in your mind, thinking works this way:
- Assume Eve is not P2W
- Bend your arguments based on that belief contrary to all logic, risk looking like a fool but don't ever let your initial belief crumble

It doesn't matter whether you
1.) Buy PLEX for 15 USD
2.) Give PLEX to agent
3.) Get standings of 10.0

or
1.) Give 15 USD to agent
2.) Get standings of 10.0

It is the same. THE SAME.

No, it's not.

I can buy a PLEX on the market and cash it in with the agent.

I can't buy $15 on the market and give it to the agent.

Do you see the difference? With PLEX being the *sole* method of RMT in Eve, it allows those who don't use RMT to still gain access to all the same features, by purchasing PLEX from those who *do* RMT.

I still don't see how that's not paying to win. Consider as an example a wardec situation between corps. Attrition has wiped out each side's best ships. Corp A spends $100 RL money to buy isk (PLEX). It equips a new insta-fleet. Corp B's members are poor instant ramen eaters with no extra cash to spend on EVE. The can only fly the ships they still have, which are their crappier ones.
Who's going to have the advantage in this war? And where did it come from? In-game skill, or out-of-game cash? That sounds like pay to win to me.

All that does is equip them with a fleet does not provide any said skill in the fleet. Yes it provides an advantage in replacements but it's still not anything a corp cannot do in game without using RL cash.

No offence but any corp should be able to rustle up money for replacements fleets or you dock up , hire mercs etc etc.

You think your 20 man corp has unlimted amounts of RL cash to spend on plex, you're still not going to beat the likes of GSF/TEST no matter how much money you spend at it. FA you might have a chance against though.

So time is not a precious commodity, and spending less of it to achieve the same goals, on the same skill level, is not advantageous?



Is Second Life a PvP mmo? DAOC is.



But they can be paid for, which takes much less time, and is more convenient, and generally funnier -keeping the isk in your wallet-?



Paying with RL money, and keeping the isk in your wallet, to have more power ingame: faster, funnier, and more efficient. That's what people with above average salaries do.




But you can work your way up, you don't have to grease hands. You can achieve the same thing as a corrupt official. What is the state of the regime? Corrupt, not corrupt, Schrödinger's cat?


-Before PLEX existed, was EvE P2W, since many people supported multiple alts, just as now?
"You would have more case for it, and it was against the rules before PLEX. PLEX and alts were legalized which didn't create a pay to win environment. You could certainly "pay to win" before, but it was against the rules, thus within the rules of EvE there was never pay to win"

It was never against the rules to run multiple accounts. So it was P2W before, but then with PLEX, it is not anymore?


"You need to show us how you can turn money (payment) into a scenario where you are more likely to win than if you had not spent money."

Any time everyone uses an alt which he has paid for using RL money. Whether or not it can be acquired through ingame means is irrelevant, because you can also acquire it through RL money, moreover, it's the preferred means of anybody with a more than average salary.


Now, this still asks why you lot have a problem with EvE being P2W. You excitedly endorse all kinds of dodgy gameplay and vicious meta, yet resent this meta: that a RL poorbutt welfare loser is at a disadvantage when playing this game.

Too harsh and cold for you or what?

This thread isn't about play to win at all, its one guy mad at offgrid boosting alts trying to rally people to his cause by trying to misrepresent it as something more serious.

But he can have it through paying, which is faster, more convenient, and funnier, since he gets to keep his isk and spend it on ingame stuff. So this is in such case P2W




The special advantage of not having to spend time, and time is a precious commodity.




But before you couldn't fund those alts through isk, only RL money
The clear advantage they gave couldn't be acquired through ingame means -we're talking about a even playfield, same number of RL players vs. same number of RL players-. Still it wasn't P2W?


"Irrelevant no irrelevant no how is this relevant"

Analogies between PvP mmos and their treatment of advantage-providing alts according to whether said mmos get revenue through the use of those alts, the fact that in EvE it is much more convenient to pay for them through RL means, faster and funnier -you get to spend your isk on ingame stuff-, this is all very much relevant, yes


Also, in Derkastan, you can get a high post in the government, either through giving money to the president (corruption), or working your way up: what is the state of the regime? Is it corrupt? Is it not corrupt? Is the regime the cat of Schrödinger?

Was that so hard?

Now, what benefits do those alts provide in DAOC? In what kinds of settings? What alternatives are there?

In EVE, the benefits aren't all that special and you can have them without paying for them, so it's not P2W around here. Maybe the problem is that DAOC doesn't offer the same kind of alternatives and that this is why they've been outlawed.

You see, you still haven't shown that there is any P2W in EVE, and your analogy doesn't show anything of the kind either.

Irrelevant. “Can” ≠ ”must”, thus no P2W.
As luck would have it, that's not a special advantage that creates any kind of win. In fact, it doesn't even remove the need to spend time — it just shuffles it around.
…which doesn't (and didn't) matter since payment didn't (and doesn't) provide any special advantages that can't be had through other means.

…doesn't provide any advantage that can't be had without paying, and definitely does not provide any kind of “win”.

Personally, I think falcon alts can be pretty hilarious, since they usually just hit F1 and forget about piloting, which makes for an easy KM. The same thing with boosters, I've made some decent cash probing down booster alts and relieving them of their juicy DG co-processors and sisters probe launchers. Usually these guys are one-trick ponies so it's pretty easy to find a counter or trap.