EVE General Discussion

…aside from it triggering a criminal flagging, just like it will with CW2.0.

…just like it will be with CW2.0.

If it is mechanically “bad” after the change, it was mechanically “bad” in the same way and for the same reasons under the current system.

it isn't at all, it doesn't trigger a criminal flag it triggers an aggression flag. A criminal flag will get you concorded. The new way doesn't only let the player decide if he wants to do something, it's letting anyone decide they want to do something, whether you have done something to them or not.

currently the game is saying:

'that guy took your stuff, we don't mind, but if you want to do something up here in highsec, you can and concord wont shoot you'

with the new change the game is saying:

'that guy took someones stuff! you can all shoot because we think that is bad!'

do you see the difference?

it does change.... as i've explained.

it isn't balanced, and the morality is different as it brings in a CCP judged morality to game play that didn't exist before.

Nope, balanced isn't turning high sec into null for one guy and not the other. The act isn't bad now, it will be considered so if those changes go through.

The new mechanics as described here are the other reason the IEEE will be shutting down.

Stealing from jet-cans is one of the ways that the IEEE keeps the office in paper and staples. And also provides many teachable moments to folks who attempted to stop us.

What it provided, was a nice easy way to attempt to get some aggression going in a limited fashion. Warp to a belt, and there are four barges, a hauler and a rifter. Bustle the battle iteron up to the can and take it all. And usually that rifter is going to light you up.

And usually that rifter is going to die. Soon to be followed by one or more of the barges present as they try to gang up on you. And as they yell in local for help. You were aware of who was in local because you looked. How many of them, how many of you, you watched like a hawk for others coming in and out of local. You see a spike of 'them' and you finish what you can and take off. Or look at the d-scan to see what they are bringing. Can you tank it and spank it? Some folks show up to watch. On occasion you get a white knight out there with remote repair.

Or you catch someone mining in a navy apoc

You have a nice, limited engagement. And only overconfident or dumb people do the dumb thing. With risk of someone wandering in and finishing you off if you aren't careful. And I do get blown up plenty often doing this.

With the new changes, this is going to go by the wayside. No more grand theft navy apoc. Even stealing ore for fun and profit will go away as the limited engagement envelope disappear. Adding the 'vigilante' flag helps with organized groups of suspects. Making a pick-up game of 0.0 play. (suspects vs vigilantes or red v blue) but it still effectively cuts out the one guy trying to watch the world learn.

Realistically, anyone shooting a suspect should probably also be a suspect. You want to get involved in someone else's business? Mind you, the poor miner defending himself should not become a suspect. He was directly affronted. So what to do?

Let's see...a steals from corp b's can. And goes suspect, also creates an aggression link to corp b.
Member of corp b starts to shoot a. A can shoot member of corp b because there is an aggression link from b to a directly now. All members of corp b who choose to shoot get an aggression link to a. The timer on the 'corp' aggression counts down like it does currently. The 'suspect' flag keeps resetting to 15 minutes as long as A keeps doing stuff that looks suspicious. Shooting at valid aggression targets count.

So far, we're all cool. Guys can defend themselves, suspect is shootable by everyone. Nobody has nosed in on the fight.

So a's can flipping hauler dies after 5 minutes. He still has 15 minutes of 'suspect' time. Plus 15 minutes vs some members of corp b. He returns 10 minutes later. The corporate aggression is gone. He is still a suspect. So say he starts to mop the floor with the members of corp b who foolishly stayed out there. The rest of the corpmates can still intervene. But at the cost of becoming suspects themselves. Or someone else can wander in and white knight. Becoming a suspect themselves to protect the 'innocent' (and possibly get shot themselves). Folks applying remote repair? Get 15 minutes of suspect.

This way we get a limited amount of keeping track of aggression specific to a single act. And a big global 'Shoot at me' flag. It still hammers down on my preferred methods of behaving in EvE. But it is more, fair. Do something suspicious? Get a suspect flag. Shoot a suspect without a valid reason? You are a suspect since it is awfully suspicious to just shoot someone suspected of doing something wrong. If you are defending yourself or your corporation? No suspect flag.

How does that sound? No transitive aggression timers. Easy to limit aggression timers. And big global suspect flag timers. (And since the big global flag is on a pilot basis, can we please get this visible so we know they only have 5 seconds worth of timer left, and possibly the same thing with GCC? Nice little round pie wedge gague of how much aggression is left.)

Hm, that was awfully rambling. But looks like it might work without having to involve a vigilante that can be gamed into aggro creation.

Question:

Since engaging a suspect causes that suspect to be able to engage you in return it would appear that 1 to 1 flagging is still a part of crimewatch 2.0. Is it not possible for logistics and other forms of RR aiding the person attacking the suspect to simply inherit the same personal aggressions the person they are helping has? It seems like it wouldn't over-penalize RR while still leaving room for retaliation without adding something all too different for the aggression mechanics already described.

Or am I misunderstanding how it's intended to work from the start?

I was there when they first presented it. I know what it means. What it doesn't mean is turning highsec into null.

…compared to the current situation where stealing has a chance of putting the thief in a massively imbalanced situation, and this is ok as stealing is “bad” (as shown by the fact that it triggers a criminal timer).

It's exactly that kind of 1-to-1 flagging transfer that they want to get away from because it's what has caused the mess that is the current CrimeWatch system. The only reason they're (re)implementing it for defensive purposes is because it would be hugely imbalanced if they didn't. The flagging is only there to let the criminal defend himself.

Crimewatch 2.0 looks great so far and hooray for the end of neutral-RR.


And are you people really fighting over special canflipping cases ? The only areas where I can see a change are can flipping/stealing on gates, stations and highly frequented belts.
For most people stealing in mission pockets or in in a random belt with 3 ships active nothing will change. So only a minority of the minority of can flippers is actually harmed by this.



Anyway I have one question about RR: If someone agresses a suspect and then remote-reps someone else who is also agressed to that suspect, will he go into suspect mode ?

Except that you gain the exact same aggression flag when you do something expressly legal like shooting at Outlaws or Rats.

EDIT: Quoted the wrong bit.