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Pay to win

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Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-07-16 13:02:57 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
As said before, there is no pay to win in EVE, because everything can be bought by anyone if they have the amount of isk needed. How that isk was accumulated doesn't matter (to me). As long as anyone can achieve the same via gameplay and as long as anyone can lose whatever they bought.





1 account can not achieve the same as 2 or more accounts unless you have people willing to team with you all the time. But even then you would have to split the profits so you still will not achieve the same.


Ok so lets say you play long enough to to be able to use PLEX for using multiple accounts. You still have to put more time into the game to be able to keep doing that.


Some people don't have lots of spare cash or time to keep throwing at the game (although that does not apply to me). Someone pays for those extra accounts they're not free so it does remain pay to win. You can argue all you want but the system does not treat everyone equally because peoples circumstances are not equal. You are using RL currency for an unfair advantage it is a form of pay to win.

But we all are aware of it and all have put up with it (I've had multiple accounts myself in the past) and we still keep playing and it's not going to change. But it is still a form of pay to win so you can't say EvE is not pay to win in any shape or form.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#62 - 2012-07-16 13:09:52 UTC
The title of this post made me vomit a bit in my mouth. I stopped reading.

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#63 - 2012-07-16 13:19:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
The confusion here is that people are not distinguishing between ISK (however acquired) and unknown currency X, which only comes from RL cash.

Look at world of tanks, you have:

- Silver ammo. Purchasable with credits earned ingame
- Gold ammo. Purchasable with gold earned from RL cash (no silver > gold conversion exists)

In this model, people willing to spend money on the game will get an advantage unacquirable through grinding, and so are at an advantage.

In EvE, currently, you can throw all the money you want at PLEX, but you will not, in the end, own anything that someone else couldn't have earned.

Just PLEXed to buy a faction fit Vindicator? Well here is mine, and it's exactly the same.

You can't "pay to win" you can only "pay to avoid earning it ingame" which is a fundamental difference.

ed: the last difference relevant to EvE: even if CCP introduced an item which you could convert between ISK and "gold" then it would be an item that is magicked into the world by CCP, and violates the sandbox. This is why people threw their hands up when CCP suggested making scorpions out of thin air via aurum

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#64 - 2012-07-16 13:21:24 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
You can't "pay to win" you can only "pay to avoid earning it ingame" which is a fundamental difference.
Bingo!
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2012-07-16 13:32:03 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
The title of this post made me vomit a bit in my mouth. I stopped reading.
If you have an alt and are able to swap the vomit from mouth-to-mouth, does that give you an in-game advantage?

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-07-16 13:38:29 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
In EvE, currently, you can throw all the money you want at PLEX, but you will not, in the end, own anything that someone else couldn't have earned.



That depends how you look at it.


Player 'A' doesn't use Plex and has to earn the isk ingame, so player 'A' takes days to save enough to buy one ship and equip it.


Player 'B' uses RL cash to buy PLEX and sell them on the market, which if you're not greedy you can get and sell within an hour. Then player 'B' buys the same type of ship and equipment plus several spare ones.



Now you can't tell me that player 'B' doesn't have a hugh advantage over player 'A' which player 'B' accessed by using RL currency.


It's not just about the equipment it's also about the time frame.
Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-07-16 13:40:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cebraio
Sabrina Solette wrote:
You can argue all you want but the system does not treat everyone equally because peoples circumstances are not equal. You are using RL currency for an unfair advantage it is a form of pay to win.

Yes, people's circumstances are not equal and thus they can't have equal success in the game. Some are smarter, some have more time to play, some have more money to throw it into the game. Nothing can change that, but how is that an "unfair advantage" or "pay to win"? It is neither. Being smarter, richer, unemployed is just and advantage here and the others have to compete against it.

Sabrina Solette wrote:
But it is still a form of pay to win so you can't say EvE is not pay to win in any shape or form.

Yes I can say that, because, as stated many times now, you cannot pay with RL cash for anything in EVE which is not available for pure isk or time investment. We don't have gold ammo. Paying for an advantage like a faction BS or something similar is not pay to win, because it does not ensure "win" in any way.
Signal11th
#68 - 2012-07-16 13:58:03 UTC
There is no pay 2 win in EVE

What you have is pay 2 not grind (plex)

Even if you're extremely rich and can shell out 1000's in plex to buy shiny stuff or a 100mil +alt good for you but I'm still going to bet on the chap who's been playing for 2 years just doing pvp is going to spoil your weekend.

There is nothing in game that you can't buy with ISK which is a good thing.

good thing about EVE is the longer you play the less interesting the shiny stuff becomes.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#69 - 2012-07-16 16:38:21 UTC
Sabrina Solette wrote:
It's not just about the equipment it's also about the time frame.

You're right. You're paying to reduce the timeframe (of ingame acquisition) which is quite different to being able to pay to win (money=measurable advantage).

The short of the argument, is if you're grinding out each 2bil PVP loki and the other guy is PLEXing each 2bil PVP loki he is no more liable to win a fight than you, and no matter how much $ he throws at the game, he can never have something you couldn't have by throwing time (or luck) at it.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-07-16 16:44:09 UTC
Degren wrote:
The proper question would have been "but are ok with plex"

The answer is unknown.

Probably because paying for subs without rl money is super convenient.

(as for alts, theres no realistic way to stop someone from having them)


Or the Character bazaar for that matter both concepts I don't like.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#71 - 2012-07-16 17:58:20 UTC
You know, for a very long time I and a very few others worked very hard to get people to understand what "Pay to Win" actually meant... and how it was different from an "Alternate Payment Method".

The responses in this thread give me hope that most of the EVE community has finally grown past the knee jerk reaction they used to have (and complete misunderstanding of the term) when "Pay to Win" was mentioned.

"Wipes away a tear"

I'm so proud of you guys. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
DrSmegma
Smegma United
#72 - 2012-07-16 18:38:07 UTC
If you have a problem with Pay To Win, don't play Eve?

Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#73 - 2012-07-16 18:42:17 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
What you have is pay 2 not grind (plex)

That's a good line :)
Signal11th wrote:
good thing about EVE is the longer you play the less interesting the shiny stuff becomes.

Titans: Elite structure shooting ship.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#74 - 2012-07-16 19:10:57 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
EvE is one of the most P2W mmos out there, through the use of alts. In twitch-based mmos, you can't really get the upper hand through alts, because you've got to move and spam skills. Well, you can multi-box the same setup and trigger the same action on all of them at once, but then it's really obvious for the opponent that he's facing Team Wizzy or 25 shamen. In EvE, you can have an offgrid boosting alt, and just let your falcon alt/remote repping alt orbit your ship, press F1 Fx once for each client and you're done.

Online alts really must be flagged ingame as belonging to the same player/IP. For now, they can be used to escape consequences and be cheesy as hell.

What would you prefer to face, assuming you control only one character:

- Some dude with an offgrid boosting alt, a remote repping alt, a falcon alt?
- Some altless dude who spent PLEX on officer/faction gear?

There's one scenario where you can get the upper hand -or get away-, through superior piloting skills, can you guess which it is?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#75 - 2012-07-16 19:13:59 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
In EvE, you can have an offgrid boosting alt, and just let your falcon alt/remote repping alt orbit your ship, press F1 Fx once and you're done.
…and none of those provide any kind of “win” that you get just because you paid for it.
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#76 - 2012-07-16 19:18:12 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
EvE is one of the most P2W mmos out there, through the use of alts. In twitch-based mmos, you can't really get the upper hand through alts, because you've got to move and spam skills. Well, you can multi-box the same setup and trigger the same action on all of them at once, but then it's really obvious for the opponent that he's facing Team Wizzy or 25 shamen. In EvE, you can have an offgrid boosting alt, and just let your falcon alt/remote repping alt orbit your ship, press F1 Fx once and you're done.

Online alts really must be flagged ingame as belonging to the same player/IP. For now, they can be used to escape consequences and be cheesy as hell.

What would you prefer to face, assuming you control only one character:

- Some dude with an offgrid boosting alt, a remote repping alt, a falcon alt?
- Some altless dude who spent PLEX on officer/faction gear?

There's one scenario where you can get the upper hand -or get away-, through superior piloting skills, can you guess which it is?



I think "win" is the operative word here. Just having the ships, modules and even skill points doesn't mean jack unless you have a sound grip on the gameplay / game mechanics.

The real win is figuring out how to relieve the poor bastard of the assets he / she poured into the game with the expectation of having an advantage. Think of it as a means of redistributing wealth.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#77 - 2012-07-16 19:20:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
In EvE, you can have an offgrid boosting alt, and just let your falcon alt/remote repping alt orbit your ship, press F1 Fx once and you're done.
…and none of those provide any kind of “win” that you get just because you paid for it.


Do you mean that :
- The number of ships you can field has no influence on the outcome of an engagement, or
- Alts, the computers needed to run them, and the money needed to fund them, are free?

I'm confused, enlighten me
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#78 - 2012-07-16 19:23:55 UTC
Fidelium Mortis wrote:

I think "win" is the operative word here. Just having the ships, modules and even skill points doesn't mean jack unless you have a sound grip on the gameplay / game mechanics.

The real win is figuring out how to relieve the poor bastard of the assets he / she poured into the game with the expectation of having an advantage. Think of it as a means of redistributing wealth.


Falcon/neuting alt, remote rep alt, aren't a sound grip on game mechanics.In truth, they're pretty irrelevant. That's why people use them, because people are bad at this game!

Give any null/lowsec dweller multiple accounts, systems to post scouts and a gate to camp, he'll show you wealth redistributed.

But then again there's no pay to win in this game because people say so.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#79 - 2012-07-16 19:27:20 UTC
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Do you mean that :
- The number of ships you can field has no influence on the outcome of an engagement, or
- Alts, the computers needed to run them, and the money needed to fund them, are free?
- That just because you paid for alts doesn't mean you will win, because the opposition can (and will) have the same without paying for it.
EpicFailTroll
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-07-16 19:33:16 UTC  |  Edited by: EpicFailTroll
Tippia wrote:
EpicFailTroll wrote:
Do you mean that :
- The number of ships you can field has no influence on the outcome of an engagement, or
- Alts, the computers needed to run them, and the money needed to fund them, are free?
- That just because you paid for alts doesn't mean you will win, because the opposition can (and will) have the same without paying for it.


So when a player running multiple alts engages a player running a single character, the single character player has the same amount of characters as the player running multiple characters? This is really confusing.

People usually don't like P2W because it usually gives an unfair (not related to skills) advantage in a 1v1 scenario. But we're all relieved to know that even if you have a single account, you have the same number of online and active characters as this opponent that uses multiple accounts!

Now that's really dumb, why would this opponent fund multiple accounts, when a single account has the same number of online and active characters, without paying for it, as you've explained?

Those silly multiboxers!