Player Features and Ideas Discussion

A slight correction:

Effective hitpoints are calulated with the effect of resitances. So this is 3.4 mil of raw, unmitigated thermal damage that the archon can take.

The game shows mitigated effective damage, that is, (1 − 0.88) × 3,000,000 = 360,000 damage per hit. And the archon has 408,000 raw hitpoints (with 88% of termal damage going into sink).

It means it can't tank omgwtf amount of doomsdays, but it surely won't go down after a single one.

OP necros his own thread, edits posts where he's shown to be wrong/stupid, and is telling people who fly the ships he's going on about, that they are wrong. Gee, Andy, welcome to my "hide this persons posts," list.

Interesting to learn that. Given the simplicity of the math, let's see if I follow what you are saying. Each Titan does 3 mil HP damage. x2 = 6 mil EHP and x3 = 9 mil EHP, so you must be saying that an Archon has between 6-9 mil EHP in Thermal. So I plug in a full Slave set plus an armor Mindlink in full Armored Warefare link set from a Damnation to boost an Archon with 3 lg trimark T1s, 3 EANM T2s, and a DC2. The damage is set to pure thermal. The result is 2.9 mil EHP total in thermal, and Kinetic and explosive fall short of that in resists. 86.6/82.5/79.8/78.5 and 402.2k raw hp.

Now, anyone can just fill out the low slots with tank according to the damage type of choice, but you can't predict which DD and thus damage type will hit you. Now Grath, I hear that you know a lot about caps, but as Ilammy noted, the 2.9 mil (you quote 3.4 mil) EHP includes the resists, so you can't apply resists on top of that to reduce the incoming DD damage from 3 mil down to 400k. If you are scaling up the raw Archon HP from 402.2k using the resists, then the full 3 mil DD is subtracted. If not, then the raw 402.2k Archon armor + 120k shield + 172k structure takes the remaining 400k DD after the 88% thermal resists. But I can only see 86.6% resists and that is in EM, not thermal. Even at 88% resists and my armor raw HP of 402k, the archon dead after 2 DD. Even after your liberties (perhaps with filling the lows completely with tank?), your calculation predicts 3.4 mil EHP in pure thermal / 400 k DD damage (both your #s) yields (=) 8.5 (9) DDs. So, though I want to believe that you know more than me about caps, the facts speak too strongly. So, now I see the Archon numbers a bit more clearly AND I have settled who really knows jack and who is too quick to put me in my place to think clearly. Even with 1 DC2, 2 EANM T2s, and 1 T2 Armor Hardener of each damage type, Thermal EHP is 4.37 mil (91.8/89.3/87.7/86.9) and minus 3 mil per DD still puts the Archon into deep armor after the first DD. EM EHP is 5.46 mil < 6 mil (DD x2).

Additionally, the Nid and Thanny have no natural ship resist bonuses, and the chimera's shield tanking is only good if no damage spills into armor (low resists).

And to Floppy and Mort, I have the right to consolidate the good ideas from my own old posts to the original post to make it easier to follow the development of the thread. Welcome to the Capital Jump drive issues turned Titan DD, then eventually back to hyperspace thread.

I used to believe too that triage carriers should tank the doomsday and be equally effective at the same time, but then I realized that nothing changed in the meanwhile: if you do triage in the capital fight (or 'over 300 ppl on the field' fight), you're 99% a wreck – don't bother, enjoy your awesome power while you can, try to save that damn supercap, it's still iskwise and moralwise better to lose 5-20 carriers but to save a single supercap.

If you don't want to die that way, you can bring a pantheon-fitted wannabe-supercarrier (yes, lowslots full of tank). Stockpile about 50 of them in your fleet, drop the sentries, and show your enemy how your alphastrike can be ideally synchronous, while they can do almost nothing to you (even doomsdaying them is bothersome).

The most popular titans are the avatar and the erebus. Who cares about two-three dead pixels of the blob, who were hit by that lone leviathan/ragnarok? Even then you can monitor your enemy titans by the watchlist, and refit the resists accordingly.

Thanny/nidhoggur are awesome for another stuff (2 RR + 2 ST, plus the extra 1/3 rep for the nidhoggur) , but they too can barely tank a single DD.
And shieldtanks... uh... they have got their awesome ancillary booster anyway. Capfleet is 90% armortanked. Who cares about two-three wrecks who can't train a proper ship for a certain use?


To sum up: capitals were and are still huge pain in the ass to use effectively. And they mainly tank not with their fitting and resists, all that stuff you see in EFT – they tank with circumstances. If some of the capitals die, then something has gone wrong with your tactical planning, not with your resists, not with your fitting, not with your '5 seconds and I should have crawled under the forcefield', not with 'if I had 15 seconds more, I would have gone out of siege'.


Oh, the thread subject. I read 'hyperdrive' as 'camps bother me and I don't have a titan, so give everybody a jumpdrive', and 'cynojam with no sov' as 'capitals bother me and I can't defend them in a direct contanct, so give me a cheap to use instaban of them'.

If a ship is not being used for its bonuses, then there is something wrong with ship balancing. If a carrier could receive reps during triage and tank 8 DDs, remember that a sufficiently large number of dreads/titans/etc. could still alpha it. PS: I heard that the most recent SC nerf made it so that SCs could only field FBs, so that fighters and sentries are not available to the SC. I'll have to check on that some time. It was at least discussed.


Obviously, added to the Lev and Rag, the Nid and Chimera are also not balanced right because they are not used in combat and for the reasons you already outlined. 90% are armor tanked for good reason. Additoinally, I don't even think that the Anc. shield boosters make sense for caps, but they are new and I do not know them well so maybe there is a cap anc sh boost that I don't know about.


Well, I read 'hyperdrive' as I like traveling between systems with my own spaceship's hyperdrive. And 'cynojam with no sov' because cyno's can be jammed currently in null sec, and also even in empire space and in incursions.

You do realize that you were the one who just recently confused Raw EHP and shielded damage with effective EHP and raw damage, don't you? How about you look in the mirror for a moment and get back with me when you realize your errors. I realize that you have no problem with half of the capital ships being largely ignored, but I am not content with sitting back and watching the carriers unable to do their function well, the Chimera relegated to pos duty, the shield tanking capitals either forced to poor armor tanks or not flown in combat, the T1 caps being highly fragile against the SCs, the SCs being prohibitively expensive, the disconnect between MOMs and carriers, etc, etc. These are the issues which arise during discussions with cap pilots, including SC pilots.

Recognize the difference between being wrong and simply being in disagreement. And recognize that when you say something really wrong about how ehp relates to damage, the suggestion to talk to actual pilots seems to be pointing in your own direction much more than mine.

More interesting ideas. Let's test them. The Chimera gets bonused by: no shield HP implant set (Slave set is for armor) plus a shield Mindlink FC running a full Siege Warfare link set in a Vulture. It fits 3 lg field extender T1s, 2 Adaptives, 2 EMs, 1 Kin/Therm/Exp to fill out the medium slots, and a DC2. The damage is set to pure thermal. The result is 2.8 mil effective EHP (vs the Archon's 2.9 mil EHP using only 4 of the Archon's lows) against pure thermal damage, and Kinetic and explosive fall short of that in resists. 88.9/87.1/90.3/91.9 and 273k raw shield hp. If you ignore the other two damage types and focus on EM and Therm, of course you can get higher numbers; 4.3 mil effective EHP for the Chimera, 6.2 mil eff EHP for the Archon. It seems the Archon outperforms the Chimera.



I love it! Grath said "frail things like Hels and Nyxs" here first. So how frail is an Aeon .. 83.3 mil effective EHP vs Thermal. and an Archon .. 3.4 mil EHP. Now dreads are a credible threat for sure, but they do not go into Siege (the real threat) lightly. It is clear that SCs are not frail, T1 carriers are, and you are wrong once again, but I am sure that you will continue saying I am wrong and that you know more than me: like how frail SCs are (not).

The disconnect between SCs and carriers is that SCs make their lower Tier counterparts look like mere shadows. The difference in EHP (above) is staggering. Price differences are staggering too. No other subcap T1 ship has a T2 counterpart that is that much more powerful as a MOM is to a carrier. Thus the disconnect and I am right again.

But if Grath thinks that chimeras are so much better, and immune to hotdrops, then feel free to use it like entire squadrons of scimmies. .. So, let's talk about cyno jamming HICs.

Sure enough, even my prediction is correct. But let's just assume that you are the expert on what is actually happening in game.
Assuming that you are doing stuff in game which strongly disagrees with the numbers, then I guess the numbers aren't important when one side can be stacked with far more supers and dreads than the other.
I can tell you that I am not fitting faction modules to the Chimera, that's for sure. So, I must ask then, is it common practice in game to fit faction tanks to T1 caps? Because the T1 hull is fully insurable pre-drone nerf mineral prices. And is it common to fly T1 carrier? Because if you are just a tank with 1 cap RR and a few fighters, you won't do near as much good as if you are a dread or a MOM.

I talk about implants because the armor guys have the Slave set, and the shield guys (Chimera) have nothing (almost). Without implants, the Archon looks even weaker than what I have shown earlier and withstands much less of an alpha. So, are you saying that it is not common to use Slave implants for capital pilots in-game? I don't mind learning that in-game people act differently than what the numbers say. Frankly, I am surprised that people still fly carriers T1 given how much their tank against the DDs, etc nerfs their abilities. So cap blobbing and DDs appear to yield in-game practices which greatly depart from what these numbers advise.

In summary, CCP has done great harm to the game by introducing the DD, because on the carrier side alone, it cannot contribute much when most of its fit goes to tank and the Triage cuts it off from the support of the other carriers. That said, if the carriers could have the system cynojammed, the threat of Titan hotdrops could be mitigated. If hyperspace was an option, at least they could escape as soon as the Titans appeared on the field. Then carriers could at least have a place on the battlefield, at least until the DDs showed up.

These are owned by the line member of the alliance, not some elite branch, generally the common battleship fielding member's goal is to own and operate a carrier, i'll get to the why later.

The fit, though standardized in most instances allows for some wiggle room. My personal carrier is simply t2 fit, but one of my alliance mates carrier is worth about 3.5 billion just in the fit, its also tanked to hell and back and bears a partial ded fit.



So, my alliance, in its infinite wisdom, names all its flee comps after some show about cheerleaders named Hellcats.

Yes, I hate it too, but anyway, Slowcats are a sentry based carrier fleet that can be placed in front of supercarriers or extra large fleets with the expected result that they stand like the spartans infront of that persian army.

40 of them can stand fairly easy infront of 10x their number and hold the line due to the fit, the buffer, and the RR they carry onboard, plus the ability to refit on the fly (40 smartbombs in a cluster makes short work of Supercarrier Fighterbombers that are sent after one of the carriers.

A normal fit includes 2x Cap Energy Transfers and 2x Cap Remote Armor repairs. Should an Arhon find itself DD'd in this situation he will then find himself quickly repped back to full armor since theres SO many reps in range of him and this allows the slowcat fleet to be the anchor or island of safety in the chaos of combat for dreads that are brought in later. So long as the Slowcat fleet stays nearby the dreads can drop in and out of siege to get reps when needed.



Slave sets are fairly expensive, even lowgrade slaves, and you DO lose caps to bad warps, or what is known as a bad bounce, when the server physics mechanics fling caps and supercaps apart at what usually amounts to the worst possible times.

These caps often die mired in bubbles and so the idea of fielding an extra 3 billion in implants is a bit over the top even for the super rich alliances.

Aligned? In triage?

Also, there is no different grid when you defend/attack a sov-structure. If you go out before your enemy, you lose.

Archon: DC, 2 x IN EANMs, 4 x assorted T2 resists.
Chimera: DC, 2 x T2 Invuls, 4 x assorted T2 resists + 1 free slot for your enemy most common damage type resist (or a SB).
Do I need to mention that T2 invul is better than IN EANM?

I've heard there is a thing in Eve called insurance.

If that two titans shot you, then there is a single wreck. But if they had shot two weak-tanked guys, there would be two wrecks. Remember, that one day you could be the redeemed guy.
Well, yeah, and not kinda laughing. But not considering your death useless. "This undoubtedly changes under what circumstances Titans are utilized and hopefully results in a more enjoyable experience for all participants in the capital battlefield (except, you know, for those hit by the death-ray...)", © CCP.


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