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Limit the ASB to one per ship

Author
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1 - 2012-07-14 18:07:31 UTC

A corp mate of mine was theory crafting ASB fit BS's and stuff, and the tank you can achieve becomes ******** as you increase the number of asb's you fit to a ship....

BS's that can perma-tank 30,000 DPS, or burst tank 60,0000 dps for a minute...

Granted, the extreme example is extreme, but non-extreme, t2 fit BS's can still permatank several thousand dps by wielding multiple ASB's. This isn't necessarily a problem at the moment, but the writing is on the wall, especially for solo and small gang PvP...

I would recommend limiting all ASB's to one per ship.... This will ensure armor and shield setups are both different and viable..
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#2 - 2012-07-14 19:45:06 UTC
Did your theories take into acount that asb's run off of cap booster charges or that without them neuts are a *****?

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#3 - 2012-07-14 19:51:56 UTC
Sobaan Tali wrote:
Did your theories take into acount that asb's run off of cap booster charges or that without them neuts are a *****?


Your right, they only tank for as long as they have cap boosters to feed into the ASB.... At the same point in time, a BS can carry enough charges to tank for 5-10 minutes, which is an eon in PvP...
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#4 - 2012-07-14 20:17:26 UTC
Granted, I haven't really had a chance to try out asb's myself since I haven't been loggin in as often as of late (rl, **** happens, am I right?), so I don't have alot of know-how on them. But, being able to tank well enough for that long sounds a bit much, I agree. 5-10 min doesn't sound like much, but that is alot. I just woundered if limiting them to one per ship seemed a little harsh considering the 1 min reload time on them, as an active tank can die very quickly without a booster or a repper in that time.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Ned Black
Driders
#5 - 2012-07-14 22:35:58 UTC
Can you give us a fit that will actually do this 30-60k tank?

I have seen claims of getting humongous tanks... but I never seem to be able to fit any ships to come even close to the tanks you are talking about. So a suggested fit would be kind of good to get it into perspective
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#6 - 2012-07-14 23:26:42 UTC
Regardless I think It's fine to suggest the limit of one of these per ship, just like the damage controle or new armor mod...

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#7 - 2012-07-14 23:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Ned Black wrote:
Can you give us a fit that will actually do this 30-60k tank?

I have seen claims of getting humongous tanks... but I never seem to be able to fit any ships to come even close to the tanks you are talking about. So a suggested fit would be kind of good to get it into perspective


A 30+k EHP tank requires deadspace/officer mods, so it's an extreme example that's not likely to appear in PvP. It starts like this:

[Golem, Golem - ACR]
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II


^^ This t2 fit Reps 7+k/s with level 5 skills, no faction, no implants, no drugs, and no heat...

Bling it up, Turn on the heat,
Add a Crystal Set, +50% to shield Boosting
Take a Blue Pill: +20- 30% to Shield Boosting

You then get very obnoxious numbers.. but also a very tasty target... which I don't really care about.... Officer fit golems that have pisspoor dps, lack tackle, etc, are not likely to appear in PvP....

A much, much more realistic appearance might be:

[Rattlesnake, dumb]
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor

Drone Link Augmentor II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
Large Processor Overclocking Unit I

Bouncer II x5
Ogre II x5
Garde II x5
Warrior II x5

It does 1k DPS, has tackle, a neut, high sensor strength, etc, and the fit is less than 2b isk (i.e..expensive, but not unrealistic).
This Reps 5.3k/s before drugs, heat, and implants. Add in crystals and the blue pill, overheat the IF's, and it's repping 15k/s for 53 seconds, or, by alternating boosters, 7+k/s until it runs out of boosters.... It can hold 52 boosters in the hold, meaning you get 1 reload on each booster... giving it a 4 minute life time.....
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#8 - 2012-07-15 01:23:25 UTC
Crazy EFT fits which are crap for actual combat aren't what CCP should be balancing the modules off of.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#9 - 2012-07-15 02:40:06 UTC
I would just rather that different cap charges gave different amounts.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#10 - 2012-07-15 06:50:54 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
I would just rather that different cap charges gave different amounts.


This, just looked up some info and was stuned to all holy hell that different charges don't give different boost amounts (I assumed before that they would because it simply would seem to make sense). That is something that should be looked into.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Ned Black
Driders
#11 - 2012-07-15 07:25:49 UTC
Ok, so you have a ship that can tank 15/s which costs in the range of 2 billions...

And exactly what would you do with this ship EXCEPT that tank? Run missions? Well, to my knowledge missions take way longer than 4 minutes. And granted you would not use all ASBs at once. But it would still require you to use them a little now and than... something that would essentially make them into a cap booster driven shield booster.

So what happens when you are getting close to your last cap booster and someone comes along and start smashing your fit. You are immune to neuts, sure, but when those boosters run out then you are basicly sitting in a 2 billion wet paper bag.

So the big question... would YOU fit your rattler/golem in that way just because you can? Honestly now... Would you?

Somehow I seriously doubt it.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#12 - 2012-07-15 10:22:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
So you want to balance things, off crazy EFT theory crafting with high end mods/ships? What?

This reminds me somewhat of the posts about the EOS, way back. Ridiculous fittings and EFT figures, to justify what's turned out to be a killer nerf for that ship.

I hope CCP have learned from the past, but I doubt it. Whiners will whine and call for nerfs regardless.

Edit: I'm actually amazed at the OP, I thought he had more sense.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#13 - 2012-07-15 16:03:26 UTC
One sentence. Exactly one sentence of his OP was about the ridiculous deadspace fits you're all railing against. The only reason he actually posted the fits was because people asked for them.

His argument is this

Quote:
Granted, the extreme example is extreme, but non-extreme, t2 fit BS's can still permatank several thousand dps by wielding multiple ASB's.


not

Quote:

BS's that can perma-tank 30,000 DPS, or burst tank 60,0000 dps for a minute...
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#14 - 2012-07-15 23:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Kahega Amielden wrote:
One sentence. Exactly one sentence of his OP was about the ridiculous deadspace fits you're all railing against. The only reason he actually posted the fits was because people asked for them.

His argument is this

Quote:
Granted, the extreme example is extreme, but non-extreme, t2 fit BS's can still permatank several thousand dps by wielding multiple ASB's.


not

Quote:

BS's that can perma-tank 30,000 DPS, or burst tank 60,0000 dps for a minute...

I think people are focusing on those fits because he posted two of them, and because he put point etc. on the rattlesnake and called it "more realistic". I presume people thought he was seriously proposing it as a viable fit.

Anyway, to get back to the topic, I don't think limiting the ASBs to one per ship is the best solution. That would render them entirely useless, I think a better solution (presuming you can prove there is a problem) would be to tweak the rate of booster consumption.

I was also under the impression that cap booster 400s meant that you still had to use some capacitor to activate the module? I don't use ASBs myself so im unsure (although I've fought against them on a few of my characters), if anyone could verify that that would be great. And if that isn't currently how it works, perhaps it should be?

I'm still not convinced ASBs are OP though, sure they aren't beatable 1v1 by buffer tanked ships, but when did CCP start balancing Eve around 1v1s? And what's so bad about hard counters?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Bronnwynn
Gradient
Electus Matari
#15 - 2012-07-15 23:43:08 UTC
What's the ASB counter, though? Bringing in seven tornadoes and volleying it?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#16 - 2012-07-15 23:50:24 UTC
Bronnwynn wrote:
What's the ASB counter, though? Bringing in seven tornadoes and volleying it?

In terms of 1v1s? A normal active tank I suppose, standard mael should be able to solo an ASB mael. For small gang fights, sure using alpha boats would seem like a good idea.

One thing I would like to see is the current ASBs turned into deadspace modules, and slightly worse meta versions brought in in their place. And a t2 variant of some kind ofc, presuming CCP are happy with the modules.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Nakaota Auduin
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-07-16 04:44:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nakaota Auduin
I wish the EFT warriors would stop spewing garbage about "overpowered" modules they have never used. ASBs are only useful for burst tank because of their 60 second reload. Even if you fit two and stagger their usage, you will be able to tank for 20 seconds, followed by 50 seconds of s****ing your pants. Your laughable examples of using 4 of them in parallel will give you giant tank for 10 seconds and then... guess what... you are dead.

ASBs are only useful for very special circumstances, such as very small gang encounters and quick win. If you expect a longer battle, you are rolling the dice by equipping ASBs. In a lot of situations, you are better off fitting a regular shield booster and a cap booster over fitting 2xASBs. Do the math.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-07-16 05:40:39 UTC
Nakaota Auduin wrote:
I wish the EFT warriors would stop spewing garbage about "overpowered" modules they have never used. ASBs are only useful for burst tank because of their 60 second reload. Even if you fit two and stagger their usage, you will be able to tank for 20 seconds, followed by 50 seconds of s****ing your pants. Your laughable examples of using 4 of them in parallel will give you giant tank for 10 seconds and then... guess what... you are dead.

ASBs are only useful for very special circumstances, such as very small gang encounters and quick win. If you expect a longer battle, you are rolling the dice by equipping ASBs. In a lot of situations, you are better off fitting a regular shield booster and a cap booster over fitting 2xASBs. Do the math.

I like the part where those numbers are no where near correct. Unless you are a dumbass and somehow crammed an 800 charge into a small booster, you get a hell of a lot more than 10-20 seconds of tank. That said: I don't feel like these mods are overpowered. Yes you can hero tank one guy all day with a pair of them. But you also have to sacrifice some slots to fitting mods. And keep in mind that a standard sb + cap booster (wich also takes 2 slots) can get the same results. I wouldn't be opposed to them playing with the meta lvls a bit though.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2012-07-17 12:22:12 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Bronnwynn wrote:
What's the ASB counter, though? Bringing in seven tornadoes and volleying it?

In terms of 1v1s? A normal active tank I suppose, standard mael should be able to solo an ASB mael. For small gang fights, sure using alpha boats would seem like a good idea.


Have you considered that not every engagement is necessarily consensual and that ASBs give people a huge window of time during which they can slowboat back to a gate / dock range / pos shield or wait for reinforcements to show up to bail them out? There's literally no way to stop them tanking until they run out of booster charges on a multi-ASB setup. Even single ASB setups are overpowered as all hell (50+ seconds is a long time to be able to tank absurd amounts of DPS with no drawbacks or counters).

I'll put it this way-- I'm currently looking at switching as many of my PvP fits as possible over to ASB fits because there's almost zero downside to doing so. On 90% of shield tanked ships you're not sacrificing a very large portion of your normal buffer by swapping one mid for an ASB, and you're picking up the ability to tank literally ridiculous amounts of DPS for a very long period of time.

Consider the Sleipnir fit I'll be using, which retains the buffer tank of a Vagabond (which is plenty of tank for most fights to begin with) with the added ability to tank up to 970 dps on command for almost a minute. That's EXTREMELY overpowered, especially when you consider that the capless nature of the setup requires zero tradeoffs-- you can still run prop mods, for example. Hell, it doesn't even require a significant isk investment-- it fits using entirely T1/T2 tanking mods and requires no special skills to use.

Basically ASBs are going to bring Garmon-fit-like tanking abilities to any moron who can figure out how to right click > fit ASB to ship. Active tanking used to let people do wild things provided they had plenty of resources, theorycrafting ability, and skill in combat (knowing when to run what mods, micro-managing cap injection, etc). Now all it's going to take is buying a single T1 module.

So uncool.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#20 - 2012-07-30 18:55:29 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
One sentence. Exactly one sentence of his OP was about the ridiculous deadspace fits you're all railing against. The only reason he actually posted the fits was because people asked for them.

His argument is this

Quote:
Granted, the extreme example is extreme, but non-extreme, t2 fit BS's can still permatank several thousand dps by wielding multiple ASB's.


not

Quote:

BS's that can perma-tank 30,000 DPS, or burst tank 60,0000 dps for a minute...

I think people are focusing on those fits because he posted two of them, and because he put point etc. on the rattlesnake and called it "more realistic". I presume people thought he was seriously proposing it as a viable fit.

Anyway, to get back to the topic, I don't think limiting the ASBs to one per ship is the best solution. That would render them entirely useless, I think a better solution (presuming you can prove there is a problem) would be to tweak the rate of booster consumption.

I was also under the impression that cap booster 400s meant that you still had to use some capacitor to activate the module? I don't use ASBs myself so im unsure (although I've fought against them on a few of my characters), if anyone could verify that that would be great. And if that isn't currently how it works, perhaps it should be?

I'm still not convinced ASBs are OP though, sure they aren't beatable 1v1 by buffer tanked ships, but when did CCP start balancing Eve around 1v1s? And what's so bad about hard counters?


400's run the ASB booster just the same as 800's. The only difference between using 400's or 800's in an XL-ASB, is you can't fit nor store as many 800 boosters as you can 400 boosters (which is a HUGE disadvantage to using 800's over 400's).

One ASB per ship is NOT overpowered... and is totally fine.... 2 or more ASB's grow excessive very quickly, and that's before bling, drugs, or implants... The RS fit I posted is not one I'd use, but it definitely has the right components to be viable for many station-hugging pirates.

On a more serious note: ASB's are fundamentally altering the solo and small gang pvp environment. This is generally a good thing, but I think multiple asb fit ships may actually break that environment due to their over-tanking ability (they haven't yet). Changing the consumption mechanics of cap boosters, or cycle times, or whatever are also good ways to tweak it. There are lots of options, I just figured limiting the number of ASB's like we limit damage controls would be easy to implement.
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