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Murder Death Kill
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Boffles
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-07-14 15:30:26 UTC
I have had an idea for a short story, but before I started I wanted to get some opinion on murder in Eden.

1) Can a capsuleer stop being a pilot and live in the "real" world. If they do is there any indication of how long a clone body would last?

2) If you kill a clone, would you be able to tell you killed a clone (excusing pod pilots with their implants) and would it be murder to kill a clone ?

3) And finally if a capsuleer killed someone on planet, would Concord pass them to local authorities for trial ?

I have my own opinions but would be interested in other peoples.

With thanks
Boffles

Check out my latest Chronicle in EON #28 - The Soulless Pilgrim http://www.eonmagazine.co.uk/
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-07-16 18:25:04 UTC
My guesses about your questions:

1) Can a capsuleer stop being a pilot and live in the "real" world. If they do is there any indication of how long a clone body would last?
It seems so. In the book The Burning Life a missions agent leaves her job and returns to planet-side life. She wasn't a pod pilot, but she was closely involved in the "pod pilot missioning industry," if we can call it that. Not to give out any spoilers, but there were complications transitioning back from the agent missioning life, which involves ordering somewhat clandestine and not totally legal operations. And ordering violence on a large scale.

Biologically, though, I've never seen anything indicating that a pod pilot couldn't lead a normal life on a planet.

2) If you kill a clone, would you be able to tell you killed a clone (excusing pod pilots with their implants) and would it be murder to kill a clone ?
A clone's skin wouldn't show normal pattern of weathering and wear-and-tear (wrinkles, little scars) that the original body had. Then again, the technology is certainly there to add those wear and tear features, if desired. (Also in The Burning Life). And also, a pod pilot's body original body may not be very wrinkled or scarred to begin with. The controlled climates of stations and ships wouldn't weather the skin as much.

3) And finally if a capsuleer killed someone on planet, would Concord pass them to local authorities for trial ?
I don't think CONCORD would be involved in a planet-side crime. It would be handled by local authorities, i.e. representatives of the State, the Republic, the Empire, or the Federation. Again, The Burning Life, and also The Empyrean Age.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#3 - 2012-07-16 19:05:57 UTC
This evelopedia article seems relevant.Smile

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Boffles
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-07-16 19:12:43 UTC
Thanks both of you thats cleared up alot. Never heard the term baselining in eve before. Interesting

Check out my latest Chronicle in EON #28 - The Soulless Pilgrim http://www.eonmagazine.co.uk/
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-07-16 19:58:16 UTC
Would killing a clone be murder? (Yea verily, wall of text hypothetical discussion)Smile

I think so, more or less. But actually the current Real World body of law doesn't address this situation, because we don't have clones to transfer our memories into upon death...! The closest we have are Murder, which is killing a person with premeditated intent, and Attempted Murder, which is having premeditated intent to kill a person, but not succeeding in the attempt. The key point is the perpetrator's intent. The crime is not committed if he doesn't have the intent to do it. Neither Murder or Attempted Murder really covers the situation of killing a clone. I think we can assume that societies would consider a clone a person, since it is a human body with the consciousness and memories of a natural-born human. But does killing the clone completely end the existence of the person, so that it is the crime of murder?

Here are some possible scenarios for the clone victim:

a) He is in a pod at the time of the killing, and has a fully updated clone. His brain-scan snapshot transfers to a new clone, so he's still a complete person. But he suffers huge financial losses (the cost of the new clone) and plenty of inconvenience.

b) Same situation, but he doesn't have an updated clone. In addition to financial losses and inconvenience, he loses part of his memories and experiences. That could be not very significant or extremely significant. (What if he had just scammed a trillion isk, and was still working on a way to launder or deposit the money? The knowledge of the scam and isk would be lost. Or what if he'd just made a dire enemy sworn to destroy him? The knowledge of that would be lost as well). The damages from the memory loss are incalculable.

c) He is killed outside of his pod. He may have a backup clone, but he won't have the benefit of an up-to-date brain-scan transfer. There may be an out-of-date brain-scan saved for the clone as a back up. (I haven't seen this in the lore. Anyone know?) But in this situation too, the new clone can never be the 100% person as the killed clone. Also, somebody has to activate the new clone for the victim. He can't do it himself-- he's dead!

d) He's killed outside of his pod, and he doesn't have a back up clone. He's gone for good, so that's a regular Murder situation.

So, with all of these situations in mind, we have to think of what the perpetrator's intent was. If he knew the victim's situation was c) (that he had a back up clone), could he have the intent to kill the person? If he just wanted to kill the clone that's walking around, then no. If he also deliberately killed the back up clone in the vat, then that could be Murder. He killed the whole person. But what if he didn't know that there was a back up clone? He just wanted to kill this guy right here in front of him. He does kill the clone, but the back up clone activates (albeit with incomplete memories). So it's kind of a hybrid crime: Murder (killing of the current clone) and Attempted Murder (failing to kill the entire person, because the back up clone activated). Alternately, what if he just wants to kill the active clone, but leave the vat clone to activate? Like, "I'm going to teach you a lesson, but I'm not going to finish you completely off.") But then the vat clone fails to activate? Or the perpetrator was wrong, and there was no back up clone after all? Murder? Manslaughter (killing a person, but without premeditated intent)?

In any event, killing of humans, whether clones and whether or not backed up by other clones, is problem something the state's of New Eden want to criminalize.

So again, you may just have to invent your own law on this one. Bearing in mind that the people of New Eden seem to be view human life as pretty cheap.
David Forge
GameOn Inc.
#6 - 2012-07-16 20:42:47 UTC
Situation A is more akin to destruction of private property than to any variation of murder or manslaughter.
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#7 - 2012-07-16 20:54:03 UTC
Telegram Sam wrote:
He may have a backup clone, but he won't have the benefit of an up-to-date brain-scan transfer. There may be an out-of-date brain-scan saved for the clone as a back up. (I haven't seen this in the lore. Anyone know?)

From the Evelopedia:
Quote:
Because of the short time-period between death and awakening of the clone, [capsule-aided cloning] is less controversial across the cluster, especially to many religions, who can more easily justify the transmigration of the “soul” from one body to another. However, many religious movements continue to insist that cloned individuals are mere copies, no more the original than a forgery of a work of art can be said to be.

The second, less common, and more controversial method of cloning is known by a variety of names, such as soft-cloning, backup-cloning, and regression cloning. In this method, the individual submits to a slow, non-damaging backup scan of their brains, which takes an extended period of time to complete. Should the person suffer death, the copied brain scan is imprinted on a prepared clone body, and the person “wakes up” at the point of their last backup scan. All memories and experiences between their most recent backup and their death are unmade, as if they never happened to that person.

Because of this, far more people consider these sorts of clones to be copies and not the original person, though the techniques involved in both methods are quite similar, being differentiated primarily by the speed of the neural scanner. This factor leads to backup-clones being far less widespread than capsuleer clones, even though they are available to a wider portion of the population.

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AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#8 - 2012-07-17 12:18:47 UTC
Boffles wrote:
I have had an idea for a short story, but before I started I wanted to get some opinion on murder in Eden.

1) Can a capsuleer stop being a pilot and live in the "real" world. If they do is there any indication of how long a clone body would last?

2) If you kill a clone, would you be able to tell you killed a clone (excusing pod pilots with their implants) and would it be murder to kill a clone ?

3) And finally if a capsuleer killed someone on planet, would Concord pass them to local authorities for trial ?

I have my own opinions but would be interested in other peoples.

With thanks
Boffles


1) already answered
2) you mean...by looking at them? probably be able to smell the reek of greed and hostility a mile off, by the quality of their clothing; perhaps know they are someone important. Killing anyone, is murder ©AlleyKat 2012
3) already answered - and I'd like to add that I feel Concord would get involved or be notified of their crime, because they would take their pilots licence away, or freeze it for the duration of the legal proceedings.

AK

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