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Delve ell oh ell wtf...
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Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#121 - 2012-07-13 17:56:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuehnelt
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
You see why this would stoke our ego, right? Perhaps it's not completely true, but it's not difficult at all to mold the facts to fit this narrative, and that's effectively the same thing.


It's a good thing that nobody will ever summarize Delve like this:

1. TEST failed, then noticed that someone said meeeeeaaan things about TEST, then fell to the floor and wailed like a toddler. New strategic goal: take these three regions. For this reason: **** YOUUUUUUU.

2. CFC decided that the best way to take these regions for crybaby TEST was to do it as easily as possible: so, as much as possible, without fighting anything. So, fleet doctrine: maintain 3-1/4-1 odds, and punish the enemy for any decision to engage. There's a blob 3x their number at the undock? And they're engaging?! Light that cyno for dreads.. Com spy says they're about to undock? Into this?! We need more people nao. Bridge more in. We need a huge local spike.

3. Of course, to actively not-fight is boring as ****. And being a meatshield is not humiliating like "being +1 in local so that they won't fight us" is. People may propose alternative plans that are more likely to yield fights, like half of this blob ******* off. People may come onto the forums and whine (seriously, not for propaganda purposes) that they're not being engaged. People who are perhaps too brainwashed may popularize recordings of SoCo comms in which please-don't-engage-us manoeuveurs are always what the CFC is doing, whilst the alleged "we-just-stay-docked" faction are always appalled by this.

4. Thus, the heavy propaganda (mainly for your own members' consumption, but also to poison what rubes of the enemy coalition it finds), the quick digression to the next war which surely won't suck like this one, and... well, I'm still waiting for the next bit. Given that TEST space may as well display as 'Unclaimed' by how controlled it is, what do you plan to say when the blob really does recede and the space really is lost?

Anyway, for anyone for whom the spy comms are tldl, listen only to http://soundcloud.com/dariush_records/ra-meeting-07-07 . Not because it supports what I say above, but because it's totally awesome. Little gem in there: real allies, who are separate sovereigns and not one of them the pet of the other, are allies for a given end and will reset standings after that end.
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#122 - 2012-07-13 18:04:32 UTC
I love how butthurt SoCo supporters always conviniently ignore their 800 man blobbing of 200 man TEST fleets pre-CFC intervention when crying about how unfair this war was. Maybe if they spent less time pissing each other off and more time actually fighting, this war would have had a different end. Or more likely, would still be on going.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#123 - 2012-07-13 18:21:44 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
So ok then. "Undock".

While i could grab more kill-mails and reference all the times that we did, in fact, undock, i have the feeling that it would be a better idea to ask for specific times and situations where you believe that we should have undocked but remained inside the station.


But still, asking what you would do in our place is not a question that i expect an answer to, because while you can be honest on your answer its oh so very difficult to be true. People can't really imagine themselves on another man's shoe because they rarely have all the relevant information that they need to pass true judgement.


What this means on this case is that undocking a ship just to whelp it is a lot easier when you are not broke.

I'm a volunteer armchair general with a 30-second online course, and I too think that it would have been better to die fighting than to die docked.
Let's examine our options when both SoCo and CFC were involved (Around the time where RA lost their staging system to insider and the station was flipped by PL):
As far as I can see, we had essentially 4 different options, all other options were variations or mixtures:
1) We could fight. That meant taking the timers, that meant dying lots and winning some, with the risk of losing sov, SRP & morale, and with the opportunity to push back, gain sov and destroy enemy morale.
2) We could dock up in unconquerable stations (Blueball etc). That meant losing sov and morale without having reasonable opportunities to regain it, and with PvP'ers docked up in a station in Delve it also meant that roaming CFC gangs in Querious or Period Basis would be pretty unopposed.
3) Pull out (To NPC 0.0 or to low-sec). That meant evacuating as many assets as possible and then drop sov to spare sov bills. It would probably also have meant to halt the CFC advance as long as possible to give time to pull out assets and capitals.
4) Surrender. To me, that would have been utterly disgusting.

For me, the morale loss from joining a fleet and some time later leave it because we're standing down is worse than joining a fleet and dying in a fire. I died vaingloriously in two Hurricanes when it was clear that the battle essentially was lost, because I'd rather die in them than sell them and run away without giving it a last fight. I don't think I was the only one.
Fighting CFC in Delve would, no matter the outcome, have held the attacks on sov in Querious and PB for longer. I don't think it is unreasonable to state that when the RA station was flipped that SoCo could still fight, and still had opportunities to bring the fight to Fountain.
What I am trying to say here is that if we had the ability to replay from that day and until now, basing each replay on my 4 different options, the only two options that would have the possibility of different outcomes would be 1) and 4) (Though at that time I would guess that 4) would be the same as 3), except a CFC mandated evac-timer). 1) had the chance of winning, while all the risks were either identical to the three others or it even diminished those risks.
In the end, if I am going to die, be cast out to roam Nod, the land East of Eden, I'd rather be remembered by the victors as a worthy and at some points dangerous opponent, a real threat, than something like "Hey, what was that speed bump?" It's not something about internet honour or #### like that - it's about what I think is fun.
In Nordic mythology (Asatru), those who die in their bed are sentenced to Hel (Unless they die in bed because of wounds attracted in combat), while those who die in combat have the chance of going to Valhalla. So dying in combat has the risks and the chances, while dying in bed has only the risks. To me, that choice is relatively easy.

So in the end, I wish CFC good luck in Catch. May you and -A- utterly destroy each other, or something else. That would just be the bitter irony of karma.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#124 - 2012-07-13 18:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Renan Ruivo
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
Also asking "Honest question, what would you do in our place" and then claiming that I can't tell you what I would have done in your place because I'm not you makes me think you weren't actually asking an honest question.

But maybe I wrong. Like I said, drunk, lazy, aspergers.


Yeah in hindsight i should have made it more clear that this was a question that i simply wanted you to ask yourselves.





Also I thought you meant undocking for the skirmishes at 319.

If you meant "stay docked" as in "allow for all the sov to be steamrolled" without giving a fight then yes, that is true. The SoCo as a whole did that, refusing to give you guys any fight whatsoever. And honestly i will not pass judgement on that call because i don't know about all the factors that led our "leaders" to that decision. I don't really know what they were looking to accomplish with that and whether they did/are accomplishing it or not. What i do hear is that the general philosophy is "You want to fight, we'll fight. You want to take sov just because, **** you.".

I will not presume to talk about everyone else on this coalition about this philosophy and whether they follow it as best as possible or not, but my alliance follows it and i agree with it. If you want to fight, we will give you fights. If you want to take our sov because you need it, we'll give you fights for it even if we can't possibly win. But If you want to take sov "just because", and we can't possibly defend it then no, we will not give a fight for it.


You can spin it the way you want, but at the end of the day this is not our actual home we are defending and "e-honor" only goes so far when dictating how i enjoy the game that i pay for every month. I have fun fighting on equal grounds, i have fun fighting a worthy foe and dying to them knowing i did my best even if its 100:1. That is the spirit of the game, where people can have fun even when they are on the losing side. You win some you lose some ...

However the Goonswarm Federation (and those playing with it) have went out of their way to make fighting against it one of the most unpleasant experiences in this game. You have done such a good job at making sure that everyone hates you that now people hate even being on the same system as you are, so they will only "play" with you if they absolutely HAVE to, and people only "absolutely HAVE" to play against you if they know that they have any hopes of winning. That is why up until now you guys managed to get good fights despite yourselves. That was OK when you guys were the underdogs.

But now you are the "Gods of EVE", and there's no hope of ever winning anything against you unless you willingly handicap yourselves. Why should anyone fight you? To defend our "e-honor"?! You have just dismissed e-honor (and rightfully so in my opinion). To defend Sov?! You have also just dismissed "holding sov" as something of value. To give you good fights?! You have made sure that we hate you, and we won't give good fights to people that we hate.


So truly. You have beaten us and everyone else at this game. The south coalition is beaten, the DRF is an afterthought, Pandemic Legion are your friends now. The only people standing against you only have one system and a few cruisers to spare. Nobody else has the morale or the desire to fight you. I'll then say as honestly as i can, congratulations. You guys sit alone, uncontested, as the Kings of EVE.




No, i won't give any smarmy remarks. No sarcasm. This is it. You have beaten EVE.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2012-07-13 18:50:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Degren
Kuehnelt wrote:
So much TEST hate


Did we refuse your app or something?

Edit: PS read Alphea Abbra's post right below yours.

Edit2:

KrakizBad wrote:
Caldari Acolyte wrote:
Only thing happening here is the biggest example of game imbalance ever seen in Eveonline, one side controls all the TEC otherside dosen't, rest you be able to figure out. Ugh

Tech only incidentally mattered here when our enemies decided that their preferred combat ships for their line members were 500M each. Ours are 50.


This is an incredibly important note that needs multiple posts. <3

Hello, hello again.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#126 - 2012-07-13 18:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuehnelt
Degren wrote:
PS read Alphea Abbra's post right below yours.


His unironically very butthurt post that assails my zero references to fairness in war? Yeah, I read that. I'm not surprised that you find it a compelling rebuttal.

Since I felt like repyling to that, here's a reply to the rest of your post: Stop liking my posts to get my attention. This is not reddit. I say negative things about TEST because I believe the negative things I say to be both true and apt.

EDIT: http://i.imgur.com/PVQDF.png
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2012-07-13 19:00:56 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Degren wrote:
PS read Alphea Abbra's post right below yours.


His unironically very butthurt post that assails my zero references to fairness in war? Yeah, I read that. I'm not surprised that you find it a compelling rebuttal.


Oh, maybe I have you mixed up with the other nobody hating on this war.

Kuehnelt wrote:
Since I felt like repyling to that, here's a reply to the rest of yoru post: Stop liking my posts to get my attention


No.

Hello, hello again.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#128 - 2012-07-13 19:10:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alphea Abbra
Degren wrote:
Edit: PS read Alphea Abbra's post right below yours.

I'm not sure whether to feel relieved that you're not threatening to set us blue (As happened in 319 local over something trollish I said there), or disgusted that you refer to my post in order to make a point against one of my blues ... Either way, I am pondering on how long into Fountain I could get in a stealthbomber before you** shoot me, and whether that effort is worth it in terms of harassment.

Kuehnelt wrote:
His unironically very butthurt post that assails my zero references to fairness in war? Yeah, I read that. I'm not surprised that you find it a compelling rebuttal.

Wait, is this @ me? I'm not sure, because I don't think I wrote about fairness in war, really ... I mean, if you genuinely is in war to win, then you'll strive to eliminate fairness to get clear advantages on your enemy. I don't think that's fun in a game, but - whatever. To each their own, or some bull####.
Also, if I am butthurt then it's not at CFC, it's at PL (For claiming "good fights" and then calling others in when they stand to lose) & -A- (For obvious reasons).
I'm not butthurt for losing. Sov comes, sov goes. I think peoples' character becomes especially clear in adversity and other psychological/meta-referencing mumbo-jumbo, so though I'd clearly rather have sov than not I am not crying all that much over this loss.
If you're deducing that I am butthurt over how we lost that sov - then yeah somewhat. I think that should be clear to everyone who has read my posts in this thread. It's not like I have tried to hide it or anything.


** meaning "you" as "your alliance & allies in the area".
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#129 - 2012-07-13 19:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
Kuehnelt wrote:

1. TEST failed, then noticed that someone said meeeeeaaan things about TEST, then fell to the floor and wailed like a toddler. New strategic goal: take these three regions. For this reason: **** YOUUUUUUU.


PL deployed to pewpew. TEST turned it into a war.

Kuehnelt wrote:

2. CFC decided that the best way to take these regions for crybaby TEST was to do it as easily as possible: so, as much as possible, without fighting anything. So, fleet doctrine: maintain 3-1/4-1 odds, and punish the enemy for any decision to engage. There's a blob 3x their number at the undock? And they're engaging?! Light that cyno for dreads.. Com spy says they're about to undock? Into this?! We need more people nao. Bridge more in. We need a huge local spike.


You complain about 3-1 / 4-1, but completely neglect that it was inverted before TEST called in our friends, and completely fail to realize what it symbolizes: we wanted that space more. More of our pilots wanted to go blow up and have fun. You can cry all you want about it, but our collective will was far, far stronger, hence far higher participation numbers (and percentages). "Oh, but your alliances are so big!" you say. Can you guess why people seem to want to join us? Because we have a blast in space, ask little to nothing of our members, and tend to win wars.

Kuehnelt wrote:

3. Of course, to actively not-fight is boring as ****. And being a meatshield is not humiliating like "being +1 in local so that they won't fight us" is. People may propose alternative plans that are more likely to yield fights, like half of this blob ******* off. People may come onto the forums and whine (seriously, not for propaganda purposes) that they're not being engaged. People who are perhaps too brainwashed may popularize recordings of SoCo comms in which please-don't-engage-us manoeuveurs are always what the CFC is doing, whilst the alleged "we-just-stay-docked" faction are always appalled by this.


So we're just supposed to tell two thirds of the people who eagerly want to blow your **** up and goof off in comms to go home? I don't think you have a very practical understanding of alliance organization or "fun". Also, avoiding combat? ****, the CFC always has flown most fleets with no intent to return home in ships. That never changed. You are so bitter you're losing touch with reality.

Kuehnelt wrote:

4. Thus, the heavy propaganda (mainly for your own members' consumption, but also to poison what rubes of the enemy coalition it finds), the quick digression to the next war which surely won't suck like this one, and... well, I'm still waiting for the next bit. Given that TEST space may as well display as 'Unclaimed' by how controlled it is, what do you plan to say when the blob really does recede and the space really is lost?


You're in for a surprise when you realize TEST, PL and several allies will be taking up permanent residence in the newly conquered regions.

Kuehnelt wrote:

Anyway, for anyone for whom the spy comms are tldl, listen only to http://soundcloud.com/dariush_records/ra-meeting-07-07 . Not because it supports what I say above, but because it's totally awesome. Little gem in there: real allies, who are separate sovereigns and not one of them the pet of the other, are allies for a given end and will reset standings after that end.


Some advice: What you just described are allies of convenience. People who will fight alongside you only when it benefits them, and then stab you in the back. That isn't about having fun, its about manipulation and benefit. Real allies are friends - they've got your back, you've got theirs, no matter the situation. There are no "pets" among friends. Allies find fights by organizing thunderdomes between each other or going out hunting for enemies, and ensuring enemies continue to exist for each other.Your very clear misunderstanding of fundamental concepts like this, of the CFC mentality, and your obvious bitterness leads me to believe some very sad things about you.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#130 - 2012-07-13 19:23:08 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
His unironically very butthurt post that assails my zero references to fairness in war? Yeah, I read that. I'm not surprised that you find it a compelling rebuttal.

Wait, is this @ me?


Nope, sorry. I believe he meant Arkon Olacar's post.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#131 - 2012-07-13 19:27:23 UTC
What were we talking about again? Lol

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#132 - 2012-07-13 19:30:16 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:

I'm not sure whether to feel relieved that you're not threatening to set us blue (As happened in 319 local over something trollish I said there), or disgusted that you refer to my post in order to make a point against one of my blues ... Either way, I am pondering on how long into Fountain I could get in a stealthbomber before you** shoot me, and whether that effort is worth it in terms of harassment.


Fountain is always completely crawling with SBs, all the people who live there are more than used to them. It wouldn't really be harassment, it would be Tuesday.
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2012-07-13 19:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Degren
Kuehnelt wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
His unironically very butthurt post that assails my zero references to fairness in war? Yeah, I read that. I'm not surprised that you find it a compelling rebuttal.

Wait, is this @ me?


Nope, sorry. I believe he meant Arkon Olacar's post.


No. I meant Alphea's. I was wondering why you said it was "butthurt"

I specified a name. How hard is this forum game?

Hello, hello again.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#134 - 2012-07-13 19:42:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuehnelt
Akirei Scytale wrote:
You complain about 3-1 / 4-1, but completely neglect that WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


I don't really want to help you out here, but do you realize that you can't rebut my summary by attempting to justify the portions that concern you? That actually, you support them, and assist me in destroying your faction's own false narrative for the war? Well, thanks anyway.

Quote:
You're in for a surprise when you realize TEST, PL and several allies will be taking up permanent residence in the newly conquered regions.


OK, I'll look forward to that Big smile

Quote:
Some advice: What you just described are allies of convenience. People who will fight alongside you only when it benefits them, and then stab you in the back.


"Stab you in the back", i.e., "fight you". -A- and RA can work together today even knowing that they may fight each other tomorrow. Do you suppose that this shows that they take the game less seriously, or as more as a game, than you do? Like your narrative for the war, I think there is also a lot of bullshit in TEST's propaganda about itself.

EDIT: Re. Degren, a reddit 'pro tip' for those of you who are not aware. On reddit, a prolonged back-and-forth descends into the mists of "click here to continue this conversation" for third parties. A prolonged back-and-forth also gives your fan club more opportunities to both upvote you and downvote the heretic (which eventually leads to the heretic having to sit out timers before he can reply.) There are many subtle ways that reddit trains its posters to machinegun mostly insubstantial emissions like his, in situations like this. Take some care to recognize the behavior and side-step it.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#135 - 2012-07-13 19:46:50 UTC
Looks like my assumptions are true.

I pity you.
Internet Lawyer Steve
Doomheim
#136 - 2012-07-13 19:50:45 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
I love how butthurt SoCo supporters always conviniently ignore their 800 man blobbing of 200 man TEST fleets pre-CFC intervention when crying about how unfair this war was. Maybe if they spent less time pissing each other off and more time actually fighting, this war would have had a different end. Or more likely, would still be on going.




Hey bro, how does it feel to be a pet of a pet?

Internet Lawyer Steve and Associates,

Bringing Justice to New Eden, One post at a time...
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#137 - 2012-07-13 19:51:50 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Quote:
You're in for a surprise when you realize TEST, PL and several allies will be taking up permanent residence in the newly conquered regions.


OK, I'll look forward to that Big smile

That's actually a part where I trust TEST & others to tell the truth right off the bat. They do have likely candidates to live in Delve, and probably also Querious and PB. If TEST also needs space (And with the size of Fountain and their membership count it's even an understandable wish for them) then it's even less of a mystery who will be living there.
Doctor Benway Kado
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#138 - 2012-07-13 20:04:15 UTC
To say that our propaganda is bull misses not only the point of our media campaigns, but the very point of propaganda itself. Of course we don't spin things your way. Quite frankly, EVERY coalition level action should consider the propaganda aspect first. Propaganda wins wars. A smart alliance doesn't only have a propaganda campaign. The propaganda campaign should be indistinguishable from the truth. The narrative wins the war, and the SoCo leadership failed to effectively challenge the narrative. Is it any wonder why the counter narrative sounds hilarious to the average goon?
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2012-07-13 21:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Degren
Kuehnelt wrote:
EDIT: Re. Degren


Its weird, even your *posts* avoid the fights and dock up.

Hello, hello again.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#140 - 2012-07-13 21:38:42 UTC
Some people seem very upset that the CFC tries to win rather than doing everything blindfolded and with one arm tied behind their back. As if the point of fighting a war, even a fictional war in a video game is to make it fun for your opponent.