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Ship ramming
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Angry Onions
League of Angered Gentlemen
#21 - 2011-10-07 02:56:40 UTC
As OP pointed out , there does need to be a kamikaze in EvE, and the kinks worked out of course. But what about just one ship ramming another ship? It would be a desperate tactic for sure, but this would open a lot of tactics that otherwise not viable. In addition to a 'Kamikaze" skillbook that would be fatal for at least one party involved, there should also be a "Ramming" skillbook that allows you to ram another ship for damage(Kinetic of course) but on the same side, this would damage your own ship in the process. This would inflict X amount of damage over Y amount of time and in some other mathy crap and you have your equation for ramming. But for the Ramming skillbook, maybe 5% damage boost towards your output to ram other ships? This could be counter-balanced by another skill like "Hull Breach Compensation" would reduce damage taken by being rammed (lol) by say either 7 or 10 percent. This way it would keep ramming reserved as a desperate maneuver. I would also like to mention that Ramming would be a prerequisite for Kamikaze as that would just make sense (seems to for me). I'll let the mathy people figure out the equations :)

S H I T P O S T I N G
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-10-07 16:36:12 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
level 5 should let you ram someone with warp speed.


Was my original intention, but the gigantic mass levels and huge speeds create a ridiculous momentum which, converted into damage, is ridiculously big. It could quite easily oneshot a titan, even with 99% resists.

Jahned wrote:
I will only support this awesome idea if you let sansha ships do collision damage, or even better, let them impale the victim and drag them around and hit other ships with the skewered hunk, causing even more damage.


That'd be an interesting mechanic, but it'd be pointless, since shields would negate all subcapital damage anyway before they impacted. Besides, anything subcap (except MAYBE a nightmare) wouldn't be able to take the damage as it warmed up. I'll think of a way it could possibly fit, though.

Dodixie > Hek
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-10-07 16:46:54 UTC
Angry Onions wrote:
As OP pointed out , there does need to be a kamikaze in EvE, and the kinks worked out of course. But what about just one ship ramming another ship? It would be a desperate tactic for sure, but this would open a lot of tactics that otherwise not viable. In addition to a 'Kamikaze" skillbook that would be fatal for at least one party involved, there should also be a "Ramming" skillbook that allows you to ram another ship for damage(Kinetic of course) but on the same side, this would damage your own ship in the process. This would inflict X amount of damage over Y amount of time and in some other mathy crap and you have your equation for ramming. But for the Ramming skillbook, maybe 5% damage boost towards your output to ram other ships? This could be counter-balanced by another skill like "Hull Breach Compensation" would reduce damage taken by being rammed (lol) by say either 7 or 10 percent. This way it would keep ramming reserved as a desperate maneuver. I would also like to mention that Ramming would be a prerequisite for Kamikaze as that would just make sense (seems to for me). I'll let the mathy people figure out the equations :)


Technically, this is exactly the same as the original post but with a different name and slightly different skillset :S

My point was that ramming should be a last desperate manoeuvre (as you said). If there was no guarantee of the pilot (or ship's) death, then there's no point to it other than to do OP amounts of damage. Otherwise, as has been mentioned, you can just spam dreadnoughts and have them destroy titans.

I do like the idea of hull breach compensation, though.

Dodixie > Hek
Angry Onions
League of Angered Gentlemen
#24 - 2011-10-07 20:09:20 UTC
Well, as I understood your post is that your version of ramming would be a final, suicidal and desperate tactic to take down as many as you can with you, hence Kamikaze. What I'm suggesting is a similar desperate tactic that would instead allow you some what of a chance to either run away as if two ships came into physical contact going the speed that these ships do, I would imagine that such a collision would temporary disable targeting systems. This would make solo pvp rather more dangerous or interesting. In your Kamizake skill, once set on a collision course is set, it can't be undone due to everything going critical. In my proposed ramming, it could be undone if wanted so. I guess what I'm proposing is that it should be allowed to ram other ships by approaching them, but there would be 2 skills related in sub-cap collisions and 1 skill related in capitol (dread/carrier) suicide run. There is a lot more I could expand on with better details if ya want :) But I like your kamikaze idea, and I'm just trying to help expand on it.

S H I T P O S T I N G
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#25 - 2011-10-08 12:10:39 UTC
I like it.

but I can see 2 problems right off the back.

POS's component prices would skyrocket.
Freighters loaded with rocks, being "Bumped by tens upon tens of 100MN fitted Stabbers....

Its a good idea, I really like it mostly because im picturing destroyer to battleship hulled blobs using the skill to increase fun and gratification of their own piloting ability.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-10-08 12:48:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ElQuirko
Angry Onions wrote:
Well, as I understood your post is that your version of ramming would be a final, suicidal and desperate tactic to take down as many as you can with you, hence Kamikaze. What I'm suggesting is a similar desperate tactic that would instead allow you some what of a chance to either run away as if two ships came into physical contact going the speed that these ships do, I would imagine that such a collision would temporary disable targeting systems. This would make solo pvp rather more dangerous or interesting. In your Kamizake skill, once set on a collision course is set, it can't be undone due to everything going critical. In my proposed ramming, it could be undone if wanted so. I guess what I'm proposing is that it should be allowed to ram other ships by approaching them, but there would be 2 skills related in sub-cap collisions and 1 skill related in capitol (dread/carrier) suicide run. There is a lot more I could expand on with better details if ya want :) But I like your kamikaze idea, and I'm just trying to help expand on it.


Thanks for the input on it, but the sheer magnitude of the numbers involved mean that there should be no real escape. Whiplash in a carcrash doing a few metres/second with a mass of about 2000kg is pretty bad, but doing 150m/s in a billion-ton carrier? There really would be little to no chance of any sort of survival of impact.

Kara Books wrote:
I like it.

but I can see 2 problems right off the back.

POS's component prices would skyrocket.
Freighters loaded with rocks, being "Bumped by tens upon tens of 100MN fitted Stabbers....

Its a good idea, I really like it mostly because im picturing destroyer to battleship hulled blobs using the skill to increase fun and gratification of their own piloting ability.


I like your idea of freighters being used in fleets, I actually do. It's like disco iterons...

As to POS components, I have no idea why that should happen. Also, as to subcap blobs, I only intended this for capitals. Battleships and below are simply too CHEAP. Kamikaze causes huge amounts of damage, and having that at a 70mil cost is a pretty unbalanced idea.

Dodixie > Hek
Angry Onions
League of Angered Gentlemen
#27 - 2011-10-08 13:29:00 UTC
I agree that any collisions should be very catastrophic, but I don't think making it a 100% guarantee that you will die/lose ship. There should a very small chance that you survive from ramming some one but you'll be about alive as a zombie. Also, for non-Kamikaze runs, I think that escaping in your pod would be something you could so, but that would have to be a manual thing to do, and if you didn't hit the leave ship button in time, there goes your pod as well. On the other hand, if you eject from ship too early, it would be possible for your ship to miss seeing as it will fly in just a straight line. I really hope there is a dev watching this post as it does contain good ideas and I would love to see the Battle Freighter as a result of this.

S H I T P O S T I N G
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2011-10-08 18:15:00 UTC
Angry Onions wrote:
I agree that any collisions should be very catastrophic, but I don't think making it a 100% guarantee that you will die/lose ship. There should a very small chance that you survive from ramming some one but you'll be about alive as a zombie. Also, for non-Kamikaze runs, I think that escaping in your pod would be something you could so, but that would have to be a manual thing to do, and if you didn't hit the leave ship button in time, there goes your pod as well. On the other hand, if you eject from ship too early, it would be possible for your ship to miss seeing as it will fly in just a straight line. I really hope there is a dev watching this post as it does contain good ideas and I would love to see the Battle Freighter as a result of this.


I agree, the battlefreighter sounds like the best concept ever. Perhaps the two skills could be interlinked? Kamikaze does 1/20,000th of mass * (for level 3) 150% of velocity, while ramming does 1/80,000th of mass * (for level 3) 120% of velocity? That way, pilot can survive but ship can't move for two minutes afterwards?

It's nice of you to keep the suggestions coming. Someone alert a dev? I'd love to see my ideas get into the game, however unlikely that is xD

Dodixie > Hek
Conor Todaki
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-10-08 20:02:12 UTC
hi elquirko

hi
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-10-08 20:05:59 UTC
Conor Todaki wrote:
hi elquirko

hi


hi conor

hi

Dodixie > Hek
Jahned
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2011-10-08 21:38:10 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:


Jahned wrote:
I will only support this awesome idea if you let sansha ships do collision damage, or even better, let them impale the victim and drag them around and hit other ships with the skewered hunk, causing even more damage.


That'd be an interesting mechanic, but it'd be pointless, since shields would negate all subcapital damage anyway before they impacted. Besides, anything subcap (except MAYBE a nightmare) wouldn't be able to take the damage as it warmed up. I'll think of a way it could possibly fit, though.



Well, I was intending for this to be sansha ships only, seeing as how their in game description states that their design gives them tremendous amounts of structural integrity. I was simply looking forward for the wicked protrusions that the sansha ships sported to be used in some fashion. And obviously, neither would ramming with caps work while the shields are still up.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2011-10-09 08:34:18 UTC
Jahned wrote:


Well, I was intending for this to be sansha ships only, seeing as how their in game description states that their design gives them tremendous amounts of structural integrity. I was simply looking forward for the wicked protrusions that the sansha ships sported to be used in some fashion. And obviously, neither would ramming with caps work while the shields are still up.


Yeah, I know what you meant, but if this skill's a kamikaze mechanic, you can't pick-and-choose when you attack. It's a nice idea, but the ships would be squashed flat with the force of the impact as they impacted anyway.

Dodixie > Hek
Jahned
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2011-10-09 17:03:12 UTC
Dang...
Kordoc
Death Metal Rooster
#34 - 2011-10-09 19:52:28 UTC
No trial accounts, and at least 30 days of prerequisite skills to train.
Caldain Morrow
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2011-10-09 21:17:58 UTC
One thought that crosses my mind is this:

-once a kamikaze run is initiated a message goes out warning of it cross system or battle, etc. "X is initiating a suicide run ZOMG RUN!!!!!"
-base damage off lowest mass. IE run over a rifter during the run and there's a chance they'll survive, damaged and kiting off in a new direction but still alive.
-during a run ANYONE hit along the way gets/give damage. And hinders the runner. (IE BS's throwing them selves in the way or some other such noble nonsense or, conversely, not getting out of the way in time.)
-calculate damage based on relative speeds. IE: if I'm running away I reduce the damage.
-Also what would the damage output of a Rifter be anyway?

I like the idea of a manual eject as well.
Angry Onions
League of Angered Gentlemen
#36 - 2011-10-09 22:42:44 UTC
I agree with whoever that said this should be a skill that can't be used by trail accounts, also, I like the Ramming skill being intertwined (or whatever) with the Kamikaze skill, But I was thinking that Ramming should also be a perquisite to Kamikaze (makes to anyyone else?) Caldain, you made some damn good points with the only way to slowing down a cap thats on a kami-run by maneuvering your ship in front of its path, and maybe you could slow it down further by setting your own collision course towards it? But I think if a frigate collides with any ship besides another frigate would pretty much be instadeath for frigate due to the sheer difference of mass (not guaranteed death, but almost always). For instance a rifter can slam into a Typhoon, the Typhoon be badly if not critically damaged, but there would be no more rifter. Can't think of much more ideas right now, like the spitballin we got tho :D

S H I T P O S T I N G
Caldain Morrow
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2011-10-09 23:18:35 UTC
Angry Onions wrote:
I agree with whoever that said this should be a skill that can't be used by trail accounts, also, I like the Ramming skill being intertwined (or whatever) with the Kamikaze skill, But I was thinking that Ramming should also be a perquisite to Kamikaze (makes to anyyone else?) Caldain, you made some damn good points with the only way to slowing down a cap thats on a kami-run by maneuvering your ship in front of its path, and maybe you could slow it down further by setting your own collision course towards it? But I think if a frigate collides with any ship besides another frigate would pretty much be instadeath for frigate due to the sheer difference of mass (not guaranteed death, but almost always). For instance a rifter can slam into a Typhoon, the Typhoon be badly if not critically damaged, but there would be no more rifter. Can't think of much more ideas right now, like the spitballin we got tho :D



With a rifter I was thinking that if you get run over by a thanatos, because the rifter is a well made ship but very light, it would be inclined to bounce more than anything else... That being said, if it had anything less than full shields, some good resists and *not* going head to head.... *POP*. Plus if the frig is cutting across the path of something that big there is a good chance it might get hit twice. LOL. *WHAM!*... "OMG!!!!!!! I survi*WHAM*.....ved.... NM !@#$%!$#%@#$!!!!!!!!"
Angry Onions
League of Angered Gentlemen
#38 - 2011-10-10 16:06:38 UTC
This is another reason why I would love to see Ramming/Kamikaze introduced as it would be funny to watch frigates amscray from bigger ships and even more funnier to watch the go pop via getting ran over

S H I T P O S T I N G
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2011-10-10 16:06:54 UTC
Caldain Morrow wrote:
One thought that crosses my mind is this:

-once a kamikaze run is initiated a message goes out warning of it cross system or battle, etc. "X is initiating a suicide run ZOMG RUN!!!!!"
-base damage off lowest mass. IE run over a rifter during the run and there's a chance they'll survive, damaged and kiting off in a new direction but still alive.
-during a run ANYONE hit along the way gets/give damage. And hinders the runner. (IE BS's throwing them selves in the way or some other such noble nonsense or, conversely, not getting out of the way in time.)
-calculate damage based on relative speeds. IE: if I'm running away I reduce the damage.
-Also what would the damage output of a Rifter be anyway?

I like the idea of a manual eject as well.



I like this plan. Collision for anything that hits should also slightly reduce the momentum of the moving capital... However, rifters won't be able to do these kamikaze attacks. As the first post says, it's purely capitals. Not supercaps, not subcaps, just capitals.

Kordoc wrote:
No trial accounts, and at least 30 days of prerequisite skills to train.


Can't get into a capital in under 30 days... Or on a trial... AFAIK anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Dodixie > Hek
Imperator Bloodhowl
Zero Forkz Given
#40 - 2011-10-10 16:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Imperator Bloodhowl
probably the biggest issue with a ramming mechanic would be that if someone put a cruiser micro on a frig or a BS micto on a cruiser the momentum would ramp up to a heck of a lot more than would be reasonable.

The danger would be that a mass of frigs or cruisers set up the above way could be rediculously dangerous. one of the more important things for it would probably be to try to balance the way the damage is dealt seeing as if you were to use 1 kgms^-1 =1damage a ramming titan would be absolutely insanely dangerous, probably the best option would be to hardcap the damage to the ramming ship's max HP or current HP

It would also probably have to be total relative velocity for collisions as stated by ElQuirko

I guess the impact would need to be set up on damge type depends on what is left of the ships involved in collision, shields being em damage armou being kinetic ect