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FW from a nasty point of view
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Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#21 - 2012-07-12 06:22:21 UTC
There is really no need to change anything.

Only reason why minmatar side is so popular is that it is easy to tank plexes with low skill alts.

But , you can actually tank every faction plexes with quite low skill alts so it is all about willing to swarm more alts for amarr.

Amarr LP shop currently suck so if you swarm alts for amarr you have to wait some time when amarr gets more systems and tier up to cash lp out. And Amarr people have no trust that it never happens and it will never happen if they do nothing.

Start plexing for amarr, some miracles may happen
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#22 - 2012-07-12 15:56:42 UTC
nasty1 wrote:
Cearain wrote:

No you did not have the same station lockdowns you actually have the opposite. If a system is owned by amarr then you can't dock if a system is owned by minmatar then we can't dock..


I meant before the patch we faced the same as you, the differences we did something about it



No you didn't face the same as us, before the patch.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
nasty1
R-.A.-G.-E
#23 - 2012-07-12 17:11:25 UTC
I think we have our wires crossed here, I wasn't talking about game mechanics.

But still taking that into account, on the plxing front before the patch you kept up with us and overtook us, it's been very close but all of a sudden you're looking for something to blame, you stumped all over us a few times in the past plxing, if it weren't for certain individuals we would be screwed, didn't hear you moaning then, moaning and tears reminds me of a porn film I once saw lol

But anyway the point of this post was to show what could be done easily and efficiently to correct the problem, with just a few number changes and bingo, ccp was going to do this anyway.

I heard that ccp was doing stuff to extremes and then adjusting afterwards, but then I hear about possible recoding stuff and more changes, we don't want to overcomplicate FW, its near-perfect as it is

Maybe I've been trolling amarr a bit much, but honestly you could bottle them tears and then sell them for isk to pay for your PVP
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#24 - 2012-07-12 18:10:46 UTC
nasty1 wrote:
on the plxing front before the patch you kept up with us and overtook us, it's been very close but all of a sudden you're looking for something to blame, you stumped all over us a few times in the past plxing,...



It really wasn't me who overtook you. My characters only have about 20k vp. I think the occupancy game is now, and always has been, a silly pve alt activity.

Its not "all of a sudden" that I am saying this or blaming this though. If nothing else, I have been a consistant advocate to make plexing more of a pvp activity. Many players said just give rewards and that will make this a pvp activity. Well it really hasn't.


It has brought more players to faction war and that means more pvp in general. But if I really cared about occupancy I wouldn't pvp at all. That is why this system is broken. What I blame hasn't changed or come up "all of a sudden".

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#25 - 2012-07-12 18:19:16 UTC
nasty1 wrote:

amarr needs to work together and unfortunately the fragmentation of amarr is a sad one, they have no great leaders that are capable of pulling themselves out of this whole, they're too busy whining about what's wrong, they need to get it into their head we beat them fair and square for one thing, they were too lazy and fragmented, not the right leaders, their leaders were more interested in looking at stations, the wallpaper doesn't change if you stare at it eh.


I'll explain it to you in simple terms:

1. If you were a currently uncomitted 'great leader', what side would you choose? The one with more stations, more pilots, better equipment and a reimbursement program 8x to 16x better than the other side?

2. If the Minmatar advances were due to the effort and dedication of 'great leaders' of their own, then why don't some of those leaders simply hop over to the Amarr side? I mean, lot more PvP opportunities, right?

Oddly, I hear more Minmatar PvPers complain about the situation than I do Amarr players. I can understand it, lots of shiny ships sitting in your hangar, and fewer and fewer people to fight.

What I find double sad (besides the PvP opportunities steady dwindling) is that the influx of wealth hasn't made the average Minmatar PvPer take more risks. The only thing that the influx of isk did is make them fly more expensive stuff. It is actually becoming rarer and rarer for a Rifter to engage me.

The system was built to accelerate the position of the winners. The more one wins, the easier it gets. That is fine. As long as you have some counterbalancing mechanism. If, for example, Amarr FW store was the *sole* provider of essential components for EVE's industry, prices would simply have compensated for the lack of supply. However, that is not the case, there are viable alternatives to items from the FW stores, and hence the market cannot compensate for the lack in CCP given rewards.
nasty1
R-.A.-G.-E
#26 - 2012-07-12 18:54:45 UTC
Funny, plxing is all about the pvp, you need to look at the bigger picture, I'm a fleet commander, I've had so many good fights in complexes, it only becomes pve if you make it so, I have nothing bad to say about complexes, "" Eve is what you make it ""

Complexes are pve if you make it so.

Complexes are pvp if you make it so.

Simple, they are a fantastic battleground from a fleet commander's point of view, so many more options for a commander to think about.

I love militia and the way it is, apart from some minor adjustments, militia is something special to me, I guarantee if the coin was flipped and you were winning, I would be down there supporting my side, I can't wait to this happens. Eh

Looking at the bigger picture will tell you heaps more than looking at the smaller picture.

Maybe you can campaign about something that really matters like uniting the amarr.

amarr really does mean something special to me and I say that with a passion, I may joke about them but I've had too many good times to see them sink.

I want to see the power flood back into the veins of the mighty amarr Empire, the lifeblood that once drove them, the unity that was so strong, how could you not love the former amarr militia.

love your enemy and your path will become clear.
nasty1
R-.A.-G.-E
#27 - 2012-07-12 19:13:26 UTC
Merdaneth

A lot of our leaders have been in the militia for years and have passion for their side and this is why we have this situation, you need to find that special someone on your side that has the passion and the patience, lots of patience to rebuild amarr.

It's good for winning and losing the current mechanics but not at the extremes they are, I would like to see a 65% reduction in the negatives for the opposing side, maybe even more to stop side switching, that was the whole point of this thread.

even at 65%, looking into the future, you will still see the winning side have more people, this is not real life and mostly people care about having fun, making isk

In fact it probably would need to be about 85% reduction to stop everyone in Eve farming militia, the balancing is a tough one to figure out, maybe a big alliance will see the benefits of farming both sides of a militia war to fund their 0.0 campaigns, balancing is everything
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation
#28 - 2012-07-13 11:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lock out
nasty1 wrote:
Merdaneth

you need to find that special someone



Ok Oprah.

Seriously though, none of you people realise that p much everyone including amarr have zero interest to see things even out ? Sure, there must be a few RPers that give a **** and would like to see the empire rise and all that crap, but most of the normal dudes are just happy to have a good way to fund their shiny pvp boats via minnie LP store.

Tbh I'd go as far as saying amarr have the biggest interest, because minnies have to work a bit to keep wz control, all the amarr have to do to reap the rewards is, well ... nothing, except creating some new toons and raising their standings so they can pull missions.
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#29 - 2012-07-13 12:31:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Yuri Intaki
nasty1 wrote:
In fact it probably would need to be about 85% reduction to stop everyone in Eve farming militia, the balancing is a tough one to figure out, maybe a big alliance will see the benefits of farming both sides of a militia war to fund their 0.0 campaigns, balancing is everything


Where do people need that money anyway? I mean, I just bought myself bit of game time and i'm fairly sure some of the new billionaires can buy couple of years of game time. However: do you fly so pimped boats and capitals and lose them all the time that you need to farm that precious isk, no matter what happens. Are you so bad pilots that you actually lose multiple SFI's in a day!?

I mean, I could afford whatever pimp boat out there but why the hell I should? I have plenty of fun time in my mainly vanilla t1 hulls and mainly t2 fits (cheap faction propulsion there every now and then) and I might buy myself a dread for ihub bashing if I like to go to town.

But to buy myself some pimp boat and never hear the end of in forums should I lose it to random gatecamp or blob? H.ll no.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-07-13 13:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
nasty1 wrote:
ohh on a side note

Regarding a reset

I like the idea but Amarr lost fair and square, the hard work and dedication from the great leaders in mini militia will be remembered for eternity, the day we finally caught Amarr with their pants down, over the years it's been extremely close with great fights all-round, with us dominating and then Amarr, so a reset would be taking away some of that great milestone for the mini militia

Like I said get the numbers right and amarr will fight for their rights to be our equal again


Nasty your "hard work" was achieved before inferno, taking just 4 hours to take a system, after patch it takes days with resistance, more days. With the numbers and time zone coverage on your side this is indeed an amazing effort for you.

Amarr are unable to get the same numbers because no one will join the Amarr since inferno, if inferno had kept system flips to 4 hours i very much doubt Amarr would be in such a terrible position in regards numbers current, and attracting new numbers. Minmatar have been enjoying a huge amount of plex pvers and general fw players to their side, so that now yes you are a stronger force with strong leadership that never had to deal with a critical blow, like the Amarr did.

Caught with pants down? absolutely. Dont forget that the patch was the drive to take the systems knowing that it would take a massive amount of time and effort to claw any back.

Well done nasty1 and friends, you really did a great job of taking advantage of a patch, well done, you so deserve your bragging rights. Props i guess.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#31 - 2012-07-13 14:05:41 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
nasty1 wrote:
ohh on a side note

Regarding a reset

I like the idea but Amarr lost fair and square, the hard work and dedication from the great leaders in mini militia will be remembered for eternity, the day we finally caught Amarr with their pants down, over the years it's been extremely close with great fights all-round, with us dominating and then Amarr, so a reset would be taking away some of that great milestone for the mini militia

Like I said get the numbers right and amarr will fight for their rights to be our equal again


Nasty your "hard work" was achieved before inferno, taking just 4 hours to take a system, after patch it takes days with resistance, more days. With the numbers and time zone coverage on your side this is indeed an amazing effort for you.

Amarr are unable to get the same numbers because no one will join the Amarr, if inferno had kept system flips to 4 hours i very much doubt Amarr would be in such a terrible position in regards numbers current, and attracting new numbers.

Caught with pants down? absolutely. Dont forget that the patch was the drive to take the systems knowing that it would take a massive amount of time and effort to claw any back.

Well done nasty1 and friends, you really did a great job of taking advantage of a patch, well done, you so deserve your bragging rights. Props i guess.




Thing is Muad 'dib everyone knew the patch was coming and what the implications were. This is a common thread through the history of Eve Online really. When a patch changes the dynamic in a system significantly some people will work hard to set themselves up to benefit and some will not. Pre Inferno Minmatar worked their hearts out really - fighting and logistics and impressive team work. And remember we'd probably have taken Kamela and effectively ended the war without your 11th hr support from the villainous Gallente!

While all this was going on plenty of 24th Crusade regulars weren't fighting - you guys were sitting in stations lamenting the situation and praying for a reset. If you had fought and fought as hard as the Matari did then the situation on patch day would have been less in our favour.

Bottom line I'm kinda in agreement with Merdaneth (strange though that seems) - CCP need to address the FW dynamic and give reasons to keep fighting rather than allow it to descend into a metagame-isk-farming-stasis. But the key there is "fighting" and Amarr side will need to do better than they did in the run-up to Inferno to make the warzone competitive. Perhaps it is a shifting of the old guard needed - and some new leadership in the 24th that approaches things in a different way?

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Kashada Kire
Nigerian Prince Recruitment InitiativeDOT
#32 - 2012-07-13 14:14:31 UTC
I have to laugh at the Minmatar point of view here. The average grunt in the average minmatar FW alliance TRULY believes they are responsible for the success.

Every group in EVE, whether it's nullsec alliances, low sec alliances, or high sec alliances, have people with alts in minmatar FW. The ridiculous scaling associated with high tier control, combined with the equally ridiculous ease of running plexes in a week old frigate alt forms a system with ludicrous income potential. Of all "grinding" forms of isk making, only multi-boxing ratting-fit carriers in high end nullsec anomalies produce equal levels of income.

To overcome this vast imbalance in the warzone with current mechanics it will take organization beyond what a militia is capable of, with resources beyond which the amarr is capable, and a truly sincere dedication to defensive plexing; something no one is willing to do.

There are some rumors of the recently evicted Nulli Secunda joining Amarr FW, and they do have the numbers, organization, and resources to pull something like this off. However, I just can't see them committing to defensive plexing against the armies of minmitar plexing alts.

The minmatar seem to keep laughing at the "whining" that goes on (while seemingly oblivious to the real problems FW has right now). The truth of the matter...is that these are facts. I'm merely observing and stating what is happening. I'm more than happy to keep going on roams and enjoying PvP. But participating in warzone control mechanics at this time is pointless.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#33 - 2012-07-13 14:35:28 UTC
Lock out wrote:
nasty1 wrote:
Merdaneth

you need to find that special someone



Ok Oprah.

Seriously though, none of you people realise that p much everyone including amarr have zero interest to see things even out ? Sure, there must be a few RPers that give a **** and would like to see the empire rise and all that crap, but most of the normal dudes are just happy to have a good way to fund their shiny pvp boats via minnie LP store.

Tbh I'd go as far as saying amarr have the biggest interest, because minnies have to work a bit to keep wz control, all the amarr have to do to reap the rewards is, well ... nothing, except creating some new toons and raising their standings so they can pull missions.




I am not a roleplayer. But words can not express how much I would love for ccp to make faction war occupancy into something I care about. But this continued pve with alts just doesn't cut it. I am not going to fully engage that, sorry. Whats frustrating is that just a few tweaks could turn the corner and really make occupancy a pvp mechanic.

But we don't have those tweaks now. Currently I am loyal to amarr and would much rather amarr win so I can get the lp with my main thats why I do what I can. But yeah. If ccp is not going to change occupancy from a silly pve game then I am fine keeping my mission alt in minmatar and making my isk that way.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#34 - 2012-07-13 14:38:48 UTC
Kashada Kire wrote:
I have to laugh at the Minmatar point of view here. The average grunt in the average minmatar FW alliance TRULY believes they are responsible for the success.

Every group in EVE, whether it's nullsec alliances, low sec alliances, or high sec alliances, have people with alts in minmatar FW. The ridiculous scaling associated with high tier control, combined with the equally ridiculous ease of running plexes in a week old frigate alt forms a system with ludicrous income potential. Of all "grinding" forms of isk making, only multi-boxing ratting-fit carriers in high end nullsec anomalies produce equal levels of income.

To overcome this vast imbalance in the warzone with current mechanics it will take organization beyond what a militia is capable of, with resources beyond which the amarr is capable, and a truly sincere dedication to defensive plexing; something no one is willing to do.



Are you serious? You realize that defensive plexing just feeds the plexing alts? It is a dedication to offensive plexing that is required from the amarr.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Kashada Kire
Nigerian Prince Recruitment InitiativeDOT
#35 - 2012-07-13 17:48:32 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Kashada Kire wrote:
I have to laugh at the Minmatar point of view here. The average grunt in the average minmatar FW alliance TRULY believes they are responsible for the success.

Every group in EVE, whether it's nullsec alliances, low sec alliances, or high sec alliances, have people with alts in minmatar FW. The ridiculous scaling associated with high tier control, combined with the equally ridiculous ease of running plexes in a week old frigate alt forms a system with ludicrous income potential. Of all "grinding" forms of isk making, only multi-boxing ratting-fit carriers in high end nullsec anomalies produce equal levels of income.

To overcome this vast imbalance in the warzone with current mechanics it will take organization beyond what a militia is capable of, with resources beyond which the amarr is capable, and a truly sincere dedication to defensive plexing; something no one is willing to do.



Are you serious? You realize that defensive plexing just feeds the plexing alts? It is a dedication to offensive plexing that is required from the amarr.



Why? Both offensive AND defensive plexing feeds the plexing alts. As you correctly point out, defensive plexing lowers the contestation which allows more offensive plexing to occur. Offensive plexing introduces entire new systems for the minmatar to do their offensive plexing.

If you want to retake warzone control, you have to keep the systems you take. With the plethora of offensive plexing alts, you have to maintain a strong dedication to driving them off and plexing your systems back to stability.

Offensive plexing is easy, and people will happily do it because it nets them income. It doesn't require dedication. Defensive plexing gives you literally nothing of value (in the short term). So it takes dedication to realize that, in the long run, this is helping your cause. No group in FW currently has the defensive plexing dedication to take warzone control from a group in such a dominating position as the minmatar are now.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#36 - 2012-07-13 17:55:58 UTC
Kashada Kire wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Kashada Kire wrote:
I have to laugh at the Minmatar point of view here. The average grunt in the average minmatar FW alliance TRULY believes they are responsible for the success.

Every group in EVE, whether it's nullsec alliances, low sec alliances, or high sec alliances, have people with alts in minmatar FW. The ridiculous scaling associated with high tier control, combined with the equally ridiculous ease of running plexes in a week old frigate alt forms a system with ludicrous income potential. Of all "grinding" forms of isk making, only multi-boxing ratting-fit carriers in high end nullsec anomalies produce equal levels of income.

To overcome this vast imbalance in the warzone with current mechanics it will take organization beyond what a militia is capable of, with resources beyond which the amarr is capable, and a truly sincere dedication to defensive plexing; something no one is willing to do.



Are you serious? You realize that defensive plexing just feeds the plexing alts? It is a dedication to offensive plexing that is required from the amarr.



Why? Both offensive AND defensive plexing feeds the plexing alts. As you correctly point out, defensive plexing lowers the contestation which allows more offensive plexing to occur. Offensive plexing introduces entire new systems for the minmatar to do their offensive plexing.


Only if you flip the system. The proper strategy seems to be to offensive plex enough systems to get to tier five and then flip them all at the same time.

Whether or not this strategy is good for the game is being discussed in the fw metagame thread. I happen to think it is fine for the game.

Kashada Kire wrote:

If you want to retake warzone control, you have to keep the systems you take. With the plethora of offensive plexing alts, you have to maintain a strong dedication to driving them off and plexing your systems back to stability.

Offensive plexing is easy, and people will happily do it because it nets them income. It doesn't require dedication. Defensive plexing gives you literally nothing of value (in the short term). So it takes dedication to realize that, in the long run, this is helping your cause. No group in FW currently has the defensive plexing dedication to take warzone control from a group in such a dominating position as the minmatar are now.


Defensive plexing is a bad idea for the amarr under these mechanics. (see the metagaming thread and my response to Cynthia Nezmor to understand why)

Caldari are in a different position. So that may not be the case there. But for amarr its pretty clear. If you are going to spend your time plexing, then spend it oplexing not dplexing.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-07-13 17:56:00 UTC
you kniow the systems broken when amarr leave a system at 99% and the minnies use alts to make vun and flip system, just to be able to take it back for LP.

Broken system is broken.

Fix pluz ccp, we told you this was a ****** idea and you did it anyways, so pretty please with a slaver hound on top, fix the damn system, you cant punish players in a pve/pvp career without waking the alt armys.

Give benefits NEVER punishments.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#38 - 2012-07-13 17:59:13 UTC
Besides docking denial I completely agree with this, @ t1 LP should be worth just as much as high sec LP is.

Muad 'dib wrote:

Give benefits NEVER punishments.

nom nom
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-07-13 18:08:33 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
Besides docking denial I completely agree with this, @ t1 LP should be worth just as much as high sec LP is.

Muad 'dib wrote:

Give benefits NEVER punishments.



Yup, the lowest for FW LP/isk should tied to high sec bear LP/isk.

the Loser risks their ship and their time for less than high sec, wheres the reward?

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#40 - 2012-07-13 18:11:56 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
Princess Nexxala wrote:
Besides docking denial I completely agree with this, @ t1 LP should be worth just as much as high sec LP is.

Muad 'dib wrote:

Give benefits NEVER punishments.



Yup, the lowest for FW LP/isk should tied to high sec bear LP/isk.

the Loser risks their ship and their time for less than high sec, wheres the reward?

They could potentially play with the LP return on FW discounted or specifid items in the LP store (faction ships, and items like omnidirectional tracking links) instead of the entire store. That would provide some carrot/stick but leave a decent release valve for when things are going bad.

However, I think CCP wanted to put massive amounts of drama into the lives of all mission runners in Eve by making LP store payouts volatile.
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