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Faction Warfare - Do Plexes Really Need Rats?
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Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-07-12 21:42:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2012/07/faction-warfare-do-plexes-really-need.html

One problem with having rats in plexes is that they encourage players to use PvE fits to do plexes, either active tank fits or 10MN afterburning, weaponless frigates.

Faction warfare needs as little in the way of PvE as possible. We have missions for PvE, nothing else is required in that regard.

(tl;dr All plex timers are increased by a multiple of three, 30 minutes for minors, 45 minutes for mediums, and 60 minutes for majors. Rats are replaced with web/scramming towers; these towers do no damage. Destroying a tower knocks five minutes off a timer. Minor plexes have four towers, mediums have six towers, and majors have eight towers. Tower EHP is some factor of the largest ship type allowed into a particular plex type.)

By the same token, those players that use 10MN afterburning, weaponless frigates, their style of gameplay shouldn't be killed off entirely, though making that style of gameplay untenable is certainly a reasonable design objective.

The problem with any type of rat is that it will affect, in some way, the desirability of PvP fits for plexing, force those fits to adapt to PvE in some way. This is an undesirable outcome.

Instead of rats, why not towers? These towers do two things, and two things only. They webify and they warp scramble and/or disrupt. They do no damage, whatsoever. The solo plexer can still plex, though it leaves them slow sitting ducks for enemies. PvP fits are unaffected. (If a PvP fit is built for speed, then destroying the towers returns the ship to its regular operating parameters.)

The towers would have some multiple of EHP equal to the largest ship allowed into a plex type. For minor plexes, tower EHP would be equal to three or four times the average EHP of a destroyer. Towers would regenerate armour at a rate consistent with plex type, such that T1 frigates would be unable to bring down major towers.

Destruction of a tower decreases the plex timer by five minutes. Thus, plex timers are increased threefold from their current values. Minor plexes are increased to 30 minutes, and minor plexes contain four towers. Medium plexes are increased to 45 minutes, and medium plexes contain six towers. Major plexes are increased to 60 minutes, and major plexes contain eight towers. Destroy all the towers, the plex timer is reduced to current levels.

Towers will respawn if the the timer bubble is left empty for more than two minutes (the timer increases by five minutes per tower respawn, up to the maximum timer value for a particular plex type.)

Just a thought. Seems people are stuck on the idea that plexes need rats, but that the rats should not force people to move away from PvP fitting their ships. My thought was, why do we need rats then? What type of object could negatively affect PvE fits that plex, while affecting PvP fits not at all (or very minimally for a very short while.)

Looking forward to thoughts and discussion on the idea.
Shalassason
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-07-12 23:10:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalassason
Interesting, but what would you do if people would use two fits/alts or work together with their alts by killing all towers in a bunch of plexes in one sweep in a few minutes max. and then putting their alts into them and farm as usual ?
Shalassason
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-07-12 23:11:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalassason
-(I hate forums without delete buttons)
Aylin Aslim
Memintolar Tombikto
#4 - 2012-07-13 05:37:09 UTC
Well,
its all about a reward issue.

a normal plex pays like 17-20k lp. But instead of nano'ing or tanking it, one could simply kill them and get the loots ( the loots are like 5-10 million isk ).

So people are losing something by not killing npc's in the plexes.

btw longer plex timers are bad. It will be boring as missioning or mining.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#5 - 2012-07-13 07:20:29 UTC
Rats like this really teach people something about game mechanics.

It is not ment that rats are so good that no one can kill them, those are only minor issue you have to deal with somehow.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-07-13 09:04:27 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Rats like this really teach people something about game mechanics.

It is not ment that rats are so good that no one can kill them, those are only minor issue you have to deal with somehow.


To this i say change it. Instaead of huge rat swarm, have a single bad ass rat that mimics a pvp ship (webs, sig tanks, kites whatever). Bring in 2 ships to deal with it... a second turns up etc... enemy fleet jumps in... all hell breaks lose lol

No Worries
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#7 - 2012-07-13 10:14:48 UTC
The problem is that if you put webs and disruption towers then every plex farmer will just put one or more stabs on his ship to warp immediatelly away. So it will not solve the problem at all.

I would rather propose the following two changes:
a) Timer stops counting down when NPC are on grid.
b) Make around the button a bubble which hinders everyone to warp out who is inside the bubble. (like in 0.0)

This would first force plexers to come with a real ship to tank and kill the NPC. No more cheap T1 frigate taking a large plex.
Furthermore, it would give both sides at least a small chance to catch someone who is inside a plex doing the button.
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation
#8 - 2012-07-13 10:40:21 UTC
Meditril wrote:
The problem is that if you put webs and disruption towers then every plex farmer will just put one or more stabs on his ship to warp immediatelly away. So it will not solve the problem at all.

I would rather propose the following two changes:
a) Timer stops counting down when NPC are on grid.
b) Make around the button a bubble which hinders everyone to warp out who is inside the bubble. (like in 0.0)

This would first force plexers to come with a real ship to tank and kill the NPC. No more cheap T1 frigate taking a large plex.
Furthermore, it would give both sides at least a small chance to catch someone who is inside a plex doing the button.


Yes, but would still encourage half arsed pve fits. I see OPs point tbh, as long as there are NPCs, ppl will have to adapt and have NPCing fits.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#9 - 2012-07-13 10:40:54 UTC
Meditril wrote:
The problem is that if you put webs and disruption towers then every plex farmer will just put one or more stabs on his ship to warp immediatelly away. So it will not solve the problem at all.

I would rather propose the following two changes:
a) Timer stops counting down when NPC are on grid.
b) Make around the button a bubble which hinders everyone to warp out who is inside the bubble. (like in 0.0)

This would first force plexers to come with a real ship to tank and kill the NPC. No more cheap T1 frigate taking a large plex.
Furthermore, it would give both sides at least a small chance to catch someone who is inside a plex doing the button.


you do not get it. it is ment that other players prevent you from plexing, not npc
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#10 - 2012-07-13 12:44:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cynthia Nezmor
Every single militia has enough members to defend every single system. It is not the developers fault that most of you want to sit in high sec waiting for your favourite FC to tell you how to press the undock button.
You have problems with plexing alts? You go and kill them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13E4UTefjhg
When the enemy doesn't show up, you can blow NPCs up for fun. They will also shoot pirates who jump into your plex. You are just another messageboard grinder who never plays the game, just posts on forums and writes blogs or whatever. Here is a video about you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHZsOKJFuLA

I also checked just to be safe.. http://a7th.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13898981 really??? This is a Minmatar FW pilot nowadays? Shame we lost to such people.
AdZc
Legio Prima Victrix
#11 - 2012-07-13 12:46:40 UTC
Arent the NPCs there as part of the fact this is a faction warfare and this is the faction NPcs "fighting" other wise it would just be the capsuleers doing the actual fight. (which is technically happening)

So to remove the NPCs it wont seem like FW as much?
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#12 - 2012-07-13 13:26:21 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:

you do not get it. it is ment that other players prevent you from plexing, not npc


It seems for me that you are missing the point. The problem of plex farming is not that some people are getting rich by farming plexes. I even like plex farmes because they give potential targets. The problem with plex farming is that there is almost zero risk in doing it and there is an extrem high reward. So risk vs. reward doesn't match here.

Currently every idiot can just fit a cheap T1 frig and do most plexes solo without any risk. Why no risk? a) Since they are all nano, stabbed whatever there is only a minimal chance to get them if they are not completely AFK for minutes. b) Even if you catch them because they are AFK, it doesn't matter. They just lose 1 Mill of ISK at maximum which is nothing compared to the gain they get from plexing. This needs to be balanced and this is exactly what gets balanced with my proposal.
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#13 - 2012-07-13 15:15:09 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:

you do not get it. it is ment that other players prevent you from plexing, not npc


It seems for me that you are missing the point. The problem of plex farming is not that some people are getting rich by farming plexes. I even like plex farmes because they give potential targets. The problem with plex farming is that there is almost zero risk in doing it and there is an extrem high reward. So risk vs. reward doesn't match here.

Currently every idiot can just fit a cheap T1 frig and do most plexes solo without any risk. Why no risk? a) Since they are all nano, stabbed whatever there is only a minimal chance to get them if they are not completely AFK for minutes. b) Even if you catch them because they are AFK, it doesn't matter. They just lose 1 Mill of ISK at maximum which is nothing compared to the gain they get from plexing. This needs to be balanced and this is exactly what gets balanced with my proposal.


Currently every idot can just fit a cheap T1 frig and kill most plexers solo without any risk.
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
#14 - 2012-07-13 21:05:56 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Currently every idiot can just fit a cheap T1 frig and do most plexes solo without any risk. Why no risk?


Seeing that you personally and your faction are more than happy to do the farming like there is no tomorrow, I fail to see what kind of motivation you have for wanting this change?
Marcus Ichiro
IchiCorp
#15 - 2012-07-14 03:22:44 UTC
How about people in FW actually try and stop people from grinding plexes?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#16 - 2012-07-14 03:40:14 UTC
Marcus Ichiro wrote:
How about people in FW actually try and stop people from grinding plexes?



Its hard to do and currently you would do more for your faction by grinding them yourself.

Since we don't know what sytems plexes are being taken the time you spend searching for them is better spent running a timer yourself.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#17 - 2012-07-14 06:50:21 UTC
Marcus Ichiro wrote:
How about people in FW actually try and stop people from grinding plexes?

How about you show us how you tackle a stabbed out frigate that warps out as soon as someone comes in system? Oh, right...
Hurtado Soneka
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-07-14 08:18:43 UTC
To simple answer the OP Yes, we need npcs in plexs, we just need them to be shot before the timer is activating then all is well.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#19 - 2012-07-14 09:01:18 UTC
Hurtado Soneka wrote:
To simple answer the OP Yes, we need npcs in plexs, we just need them to be shot before the timer is activating then all is well.


solution like this turn FW just more and more carebearing than before.

Only solution is to remove ISK grinding, by removing special LP store, and lower lp amount from plexes and missions.
rightuos
The Tempted Strain
#20 - 2012-07-14 09:20:35 UTC
Disable the ability to warp out of a plex all together until the plex is taken, or defended. Force the commit.
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