Player Features and Ideas Discussion

You are missing the point : selecting damage type is not generalisation because "kinetic damage dealer" is not a role for a ship.

And if projectile turret do more damage than rockets, its because they have what ? 10 times less range ? As I said, rocket outdamage any close range weapon from 6km to anywhere outside. Infact, this 2 rocket launcher condor outdps a 3 blasters merlin at 7 or 8km... Rocket also outdamage any longrange turret until you go outside of their operative range.

Swaping ammo is not a problem too, because you select your ammo before the fight. And no, it's really a prefered damage type, most notably against high resist ennemies : 50% bonus is huge, though against a T2 gallente hull (the most resistant to kinetic), you can swap before the fight to explosive ammo with great benefit ; something amarr and gallente cannot do. You *have* the advantage of selectable damage type.

Missiles are different than turrets, and you need to consider them in a whole ; comparing drawbacks of missiles with advantages of turrets is silly. Use a merlin for brawling, the condor is a fast combat interception frigate and the kestrel is on its way to become a cheap hookbill.

And for the one above, using number is cool, but using relevant ones is better : hyperion is tier3 battleship ; Apoc is tier2 battleship. Your comparison is over right after this discovery, but you made a lot more mistakes too, like comparing tachyon with 425mm and you didn't fit anything else. Gallente and Amarr hull are equally difficult to fit, I played with both on evehq. Only drawback of beams compared to railguns is the cap use ; deal with it, and you have a better railgun in every respect : alpha, tracking, dps.

PS : I verifyed for beam and 425mm on hyperion and abaddon, and I stand still : beam are harder on PG, but 425mm are harder on CPU.

Well at the end we can say that they are bouth practically equilibrated then.
I used the apoc because the abaddon have a lot of capacitor problems to fit them, and the power problems are the same that the apoc, ok it has a better cpu but the capacitor is horrible then. And fitted the abadon and the hyperion are worst that a maelstrom with 1400mm canons that can use a nice shield, mwd and a good alpha.
Now the only i say is to don't criticize beams to say that rails aren't as good as they must be, because beams are nerfed too, and aren't the problem that do rails useless.

Now artillery is used in a lot of battles, but rails and beams only some new battlecruisers can use them well. A lot of people is speaking about use new modules to warp at 100km to stop artillery fleets.. , i think that it is a terrible idea, because if cruise misiles, beams and rails aren't used, the solution is to improve long range weapons to have better alpha and be easier to fit. them, and not to kill the long range warfare with short range ships that can kill everything.
So i think like you that rails must be improved, but beams too, and must be easier to fit it to have some tank, speed, and those long range weapons need more alpha too, not like artillery because beams and rails have more dps and tracking but need less rate of fire and more alpha, and of those 2 weapons rails need more alpha now that beams it's true.

And speaking about the condor, i continue to see the 10% more dmg using kinetic missiles the same that the kestrel but worst. T2 ships need to change the better defense against the enemy faction for more hp and then it ll work better.

I don't use caldari ships but i don't see the condor a good ship if you have only a bonus.

If ccp don't like the 5% rate of fire, and the 10% of range ok, but a 10% more dps using kinetic is only a bonus, it needs 2, and i don't see the 5% more rate of fire as dangerous as a lot of people say, kestrel use a similar bonus, and gallente t2 frigates continue to be used well, we can speak about the slasher too, it ll use many kinds of damage and have a better dps that the condor, and no one is saying that it ll be bad for t2 amarrian frigates, i think that see thet 5% more rate of fire in missiles as an over bonus, is to be a little paranoid, you have to know that the condor ll have less dps that the other faction ships of that class.

@Zhephell : yep, rails and beams are *almost* balanced : that's what hurt rails. Rails need something, and it will obviously not be alpha, so it can be tracking or dps. Dps is the obvious choice : rails would be the best long range dps at usable range, but doing this beams would be obsoleted because pulse would be better at long-medium range where beam would still be better than rails. Give tracking to rails so, and hybrid now have something to use at medium range, and they still are the best at very long and very close range.

@Dr Sheng : you don't have any idea of balance either. Your idea would only make every ship the same. Do you know about the kestrel ? Yeah, it will have its buff too for god's sake ! You shall have your rocket brawler eventually, but it won't be the condor ! Condor is fast combat tackle, not pwnmobile !

And for the Executioner, can you really say that it will not be like its interceptors counterparts ?

For the punisher, I can make a quick and dirty fit with 10kehp and 150dps, 108dps with scorch at 10km ; or a 7kehp brick with 175dps ; oh, and your range is twice the one of a merlin, infact, you have its falloff in optimal : as long as you maintain distance, he's dead. You also shoot at it's weakest resist. Infact, I tend to see the punisher as an anti-merlin. No one flying the punisher dont mean they are bad but only that people prefer something else. What concern have you with the punisher appart from it not being fashion ?

heh.... no.

I think you'll actually find that caldari's "thing" has always intended to be long range, not just missiles. missiles are most certainly a part of that, don't get me wrong but the whole idea of "caldari = missiles" is just... bland. we all know that amarr are more than just lasers and gallente are significantly more than just drones and everyone is happy when some thing is done which makes either fleet more interesting, but the moment any suggestion is made to improve the hybrid lines of caldari ships we get a screaming uproar of luddites who say that caldari should have more missiles...

we HAVE all the missiles we'll ever need with that platform alone and that in my mind is one of the problems with caldari. whenever any suggestion is made to improve other ships its constantly trumped by the strawman argument of "you get the drake!" its a bit annoying to say the least. YES we get the drake, but some of us would like to be able to fly things other that drakes and blackbirds. what about moa? why can't that get a bit more love. or the noble ferox, well known as the most manly of all battlecruisers. everyone knows these ships are sub par but we always get "LOL DRAEK!" as a responce.

I must admit its easier for me than most, in RvB we get to fly whatever the hell we want and i can fly moas and ferox. they're not all that bad in the right situations and i eagerly await the teiricide to move up and hopefully correct the flaws in these two ships and hopefully we can get out from under the annoying declaration that caldari don't need anything but more missiles. that isn't what we need, we need ships OTHER than the drake for mainline pvp. rokhs are doing well thanks to the hybrid rebalance and the merlin has claimed a (possibly too powerful) spot in the frigate line. in a perfect world there wouldn't be any duff ships to choose from and while i doubt the teiricide will get us that, its most certainly going a good way to shaking up the established order and closing the gaps between the various races while maintaining flavour between them.

should caldari have missiles? hell yes they look awesome and fit into caldari doctrine fantastically, but should it be ALL caldari have? hell no. the caldari hybrid line is a bit of an unloved step child in the mind of a lot of players but with a bit of love they could become something worth fielding.

the unstoppable reign of the rifter has been shattered (a little too hard one might say) and the rupture will eventually have to fight its oppositon on an even keel. and honestly i eagerly await the drake being taken down a peg as well in favour of the ferox. no fleet should be a "one ship wunderboat" and while i'm probably just dreaming, there is no reason we shouldn't help poke ccp in a better direction :)

*gets off soap box*


also, can't be used at close range? LRN TO WEB LULZ :>

I do find it slightly ironic that most of the people proclaiming "wat r rails? caldari r missiles" can't actually spell "missiles". Let's just say that it doesn't help their credibility...

Not sure if trolling or ... please learn to write before you write in public. It'll make things much easier on all of us, yourself included.

Anyway, I will give you a hint: while Caldari gunboats certainly can use blasters effectively, they really shine with railguns. Blaster-fit Caldari gunboats are more for an element of surprise (and certain particular PvE situations.)

Here're the thumb rules of EVE ship design by race*:

Amarr = lasers and passive (read: not the ones you have to activate) armor modules. Tank before gank.

Caldari = Missiles, railguns, and passive (read: not the ones you have to activate) shield modules. Tank before gank.

Gallente = Blasters, drones, and active (read: ones you have to activate) armor modules. Don't use anything that gimps your speed/agility or inflates your sig radius. Gank before tank.

Minmatar = Emphasis on projectile turrets, can often also use missiles and drones to good effect. Large ships tend towards active (read: the ones you have to activate) shield modules while small ships tend towards speed/agility upgrades and active (read: the ones you have to activate) armor modules. Don't use anything that gimps your speed/agility or inflates your sig radius. Gank before tank.

*Note that these are thumb rules and not carved in stone. A lot of vets might look at this and roll their eyes, with good reasons. Many variations depend on ship, and whether or not you want to be unpredictable and/or daft. This is demonstrative of the most general level of ship design in EVE only, nothing specific.

yay! thanks CCP for listening to my post! : D

I am somewhat curious as to how you managed to reached this conclusion Serras actually. why should caldari have less hybrid boats than missile? there certainly isn't anything in the fluff as it were which says this outright. simply "MIZZILES ARE BETTAR!" really doesn't qualify in my mind as a reasonable explanation. the goal of the tericide and rebalancing in general should be to diversify and expand the options of players to use within eve, not pidgeon hole races into specific ships and weapons because they're "better".

we shouldn't ask ccp to polarise the factions, quite the opposition we should ernestly push ccp to broaden the scale of what each fleet should do while making a point to maintain the specific flavours of the races based on their background, concepts and mindsets. Caldari should be caldari because they are caldari, not because they have ships which use missiles

Caldari are pragmatic and highly skilled in terms of technology, so logically they would favour longer range combat and make use of their technological advantage to inflict maximum damage for minimum expenditure of resources and risk to their own forces. as such we get a leaning towards hybrid weaponry, missiles and shields (shields are a good bit more high tech than slabs of armour after all). Caldari blasterboats seem a bit of an oddity but still fit into this mind set nicely as any pragmatic fleet commander would ensure that he has multiple responces to changing situations, think of caldari blaster boats as the "counter attack" or "escort" vessels in the prodominantly range oriented caldari fleet.

this isn't just something we can attribute to cadlari, lets look at the same kind of focus for the Amarrians.

Amarrians are dogged and determined but also somewhat fundementalist in their approach to space warfare. high levels of technological innovation are more restricted compared to the other races but what they do have is reliable and efficient. This quite happily leads us to amarrian ship design. outside of the arbatrator line of vessels (including the curse and pilgrim) almost all amarrian ships follow the same principles of ship design. you start with a strong well built hull, with emphisis on armour to absorb the majority of damage inflicted against you, active armour repping isn't something which is typically considered in the mindset of an amarrian as its very much his duty to stand his ground for the good of his faith against all who would threaten it and should he fall, he's done it for the good of god. amarrian ships don't typically favour midslots, which gives the impression that rather than using technology to control an engagement (amarr typically being less innovative than the other factions) and so often will only have 2-4 mids on most hulls, enough to stop the opponent leaving a fight but little else, amarr compensate for this however with the deployment of lasers.

now one could argue that lasers are the most "advanced" of the weapon platforms but when you consider background, hybrid weaponry strikes me as significantly more hightech, essentially superheated plasma shotguns for blasters and relativistic acceleration of materials for railguns. lasers are a fair bit less high tech as this, after all we here in the real world already have lasers, but we're only just making railguns work and blasters are as good as a pipedream for the next 10 years at least. but in eve lasers are something dependable and reliable. sure they use lots of cap but from the viewpoint of an amarrian they're the fist of god in weapon form, only the more liberal khanid who were heavily influenced by the caldari when they splintered off for a while, deviate from the laser "standard".


I'm probably spinning off into all kinds of rediculous roleplaying ballocks here but i think the point still stands. the ship rebalancing should NOT be controled by what is good now, it should be determined by what the game should be. caldari = missiles should be made redundant as the teiricide and rebalance moves up through the various classes to make caldari what they appear to be in the fluff, combat pragmatists. In the same way we should drive for the amarrians to be dogged and unflinching, the minmatar to be fast and evaisive and the gallente to be confrontational.


the overall feel of each faction should be determined by the sum of its collective parts, not what happens to be powerful in the game right now.

Tl:DR caldari =/= missiles because MIZZILES ARE GUD! in the same way amarrians =/= scorch because its a good ammo choice.


*removes wizard hat*

?

Malediction: 22.50km
Crusader: 20km

Raptor: 25km
Crow: 30km

Ares: 25km
Taranis: 20km

Stiletto: 25km
Claw: 17.50km

For comparison, Retribution: 40km

Do you mean that you recommend that interceptors get a targeting buff?

10% on rockets might be a little much. 5% would be ok.

An alternative would be to buff rockets with 10% to make it more viable for all of the ships that isn't a Hawk and a Hookbill, and adjust those two ships as needed.