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AntiGoons Running Rampant
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Hiyora Akachi
Blood Alcohol Content
T O P S H E L F
#41 - 2012-07-11 14:23:28 UTC
This wouldn't affect GSF at all. They'd just use their High-sec mining/Manu alts to get their goods. It might hurt other members of the alliance, but again High-sec Mining/Manu alts counter this.


Not Pro or Anti Goons, but I see no way this could possibly work.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#42 - 2012-07-11 14:27:38 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
It's amazing how mad and stupid people can get, just because someone else is better at the game then them What?


How does ganking a miner make you better than the miner? The ability to apply damage does not prove superiority, only that you trained differently and have a different value system. If you go by isk raised, a trade would be better without ever firing a shot.

This was just someone's proposal for an embargo, and we are pointing out why it would work.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-07-11 14:28:10 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
There are a few problems such plans tend to forget...

Not everyone participates. While some may sell by contract, others will ignore this or see potential to profit more by selling on market.

It's not all about the goons/nul sec. My Indies make a fair amount of t2 mods. I sell in jita because of the speed items sell. I bet a vast majority of my items go to RvB suppliers and other hi sec combatants. (besides what need do nul sec alliance have for t2 small turrets, micro aux cores, and such). Better to sell where I know there is a market.

Npc spawns include hauler ships. In nul, it's possible to get 20 mil trit from a belt rat. Not common, but belt ratting and catching the occassional hauler npc can generate enough materials to build a few ships, so why would goons worry?

The common assumption that goons bot. Yes, I know they say no one in goons does. Even if true, renters, or other entities may, helping them fuel their own indy needs.

Tech...if goons have such isk, no amount of selling to the competition will help if goons can still buy all they need at even inflated prices.


Also, not everyone wants to join some nul alliance. Thus email suggests you have time to just mull around in nul, mining. During my nul stint, we were having constant ctas and such, limiting free time to mine, and if u weren't fighting, u risked being kicked out of corp/alliance. Plus many alliances want all toons in their nul group, preventing u from having hi sec indy toons separate that can make isk or play when not wanting to deal with nul drama.


Sorry, but these ideas, though noble often are not thought through and lead no where.



All alliances aren't required to defend.

On top of that IRC are some mining mofos anyway.

No idea what they se up too, but it sounds interesting.
Caucus Prime
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-07-11 14:32:10 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
It's amazing how mad and stupid people can get, just because someone else is better at the game then them What?


Not mad at all. Not Anit-CFC, I could care less. They don't affect the way I play. Its not a perfect plan, But it is a thought in the right direction.
Karadion Kohlar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-07-11 14:32:50 UTC
Caucus Prime wrote:
Not mad at all. Not Anit-CFC, I could care less. They don't affect the way I play. Its not a perfect plan, But it is a thought in the wrong direction.

Fixed that up for you.
Sakiya Shiratori
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-07-11 14:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sakiya Shiratori
Hiyora Akachi wrote:
This wouldn't affect GSF at all. They'd just use their High-sec mining/Manu alts to get their goods.


But then they would get ganked...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#47 - 2012-07-11 14:41:39 UTC
Vellen Thoss wrote:
You missed the point. The proposal is a trade embargo against GSF/CFC, not the general playing public. It would only effect those in GSF/CFC.
…and here's the point you missed: there is this concept in game theory called “defection”, and its existence means that, to make the thing work, you would have to embargo everyone.

The problem with that, of course, is that it entails creating a separate, controlled, and completely independent economy inside of the overall EVE economy (which is notorious for being very difficult to control), which means that it will have no effect on the overall economy and not hurt anyone except maybe the participants of this enclosed economy.
Caucus Prime
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-07-11 14:55:03 UTC
Karadion Kohlar wrote:
Caucus Prime wrote:
Not mad at all. Not Anit-CFC, I could care less. They don't affect the way I play. Its not a perfect plan, But it is a thought in the wrong direction.

Fixed that up for you.


If it is wrong why post.
Caucus Prime
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-07-11 14:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Caucus Prime
Double post. oops
Dave stark
#50 - 2012-07-11 14:57:53 UTC
hang on... no, wait, no... people haven't realised.

goons don't care if you sell your low end minerals to them or not. think about it and you'll realise why they honestly won't give a toss. in fact, i'm ashamed it took me 3 pages of this thread to realise that.
Unit757
North Point
#51 - 2012-07-11 14:57:56 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
It's amazing how mad and stupid people can get, just because someone else is better at the game then them What?


How does ganking a miner make you better than the miner? The ability to apply damage does not prove superiority, only that you trained differently and have a different value system. If you go by isk raised, a trade would be better without ever firing a shot.

This was just someone's proposal for an embargo, and we are pointing out why it would work.


Were did I mention anything about ganking a miner? If you honestly think that a bunch of miners not giving anything to GSF will hurt them, then you clearly lack an understanding how how they operate. Not that I have an understanding, but I don't think they would build an empire that relies in an way on a bunch of high sec miners.

Oh, and if spending an entire month ganking the hell out of high sec miners DIDN'T convince them to start tanking their ships, then good luck convincing them all to start some embargo.
D3F4ULT
#52 - 2012-07-11 15:21:54 UTC
Nah, I would rather sell to goonswarm. They blow up ships and get blown up, without them and the CFC and others around null and the like; the game would be full of literal carebears that cant bare the heat of destruction in understanding that them mining does not turn the cogs of the game its destruction.

Without things going pop, you have no reason to sell and no one has a reason to buy. Hindsight by the average highsec dweller.

"Bow down before the one you serve, you're going to get what you deserve"
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#53 - 2012-07-11 15:32:57 UTC
You guys need to think a little less micro and a little more macro. Sure, the economic effect on the target (Goons) might be negligible. It most likely wouldn't even be apparent or observable. But, if it has even a small disrupting effect on their routine, then it has some effect. They have to change and adapt somehow, and that requires spending game time and effort.

Citing some examples from this thread: Using a high sec trading alt-- Well, that takes time and attention, that could otherwise have been spent doing something more efficient or productive. Mining for minerals themselves-- Same thing. Time spent doing that, instead of on doing something else they may have planned. If you want to hurt an opponent group in an MMO, one good way is to make them spend their game time doing reactive things, instead of proactive things.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#54 - 2012-07-11 15:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
I wish did this happen, however, so I can use an alt in an anti-CFC alliance to buy minerals and then sell them to a CFC alliance for a tiny markup.

I could use a few hundred bill....

AHHH.. But everyone else had already done this.

The more "market pressure" you apply the more you create an incentive to circumvent it, and create alternate markets for third parties to supply where there is demand.

It's a flawed concept, sorry.

Above poster: you really think it is worth destroying the entire market in highsec/the game to make GSF use the neutral alts they are already using? Really?

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#55 - 2012-07-11 17:02:35 UTC
And people wonder why hulk-mining carebears are mocked by most of the null sec population... Roll
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#56 - 2012-07-11 17:05:36 UTC
sounds legit

.
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2012-07-11 17:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Ferrr
This thread just goes to remind me why we need more control of our market orders. When placing a buy/sell order you should be able to decide who you do business with. Just need a new option to set availability by standings.


Arkon Olacar wrote:
And people wonder why hulk-mining carebears are mocked by most of the null sec population... Roll

The forum mocks the carebares when they just die and do nothing. Now that they are trying to do something (even if it is 100% destined to fail), you still mock them. Not I, I give this dude credit for trying to do something.
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#58 - 2012-07-11 17:13:18 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:

Arkon Olacar wrote:
And people wonder why hulk-mining carebears are mocked by most of the null sec population... Roll

The forum mocks the carebares when they just die and do nothing. Now that they are trying to do something (even if it is 100% destined to fail), you still mock them. Not I, I give this dude credit for trying to do something.

The forum mocks carebears because they sit there and die, yes, but also because when they do suggest something it is ridiculous as this, or more often a thinly veiled request for CCP to mass-ban the CFC. I know quite a few miners who are extremely competant industrialists, and guess what - they don't get ganked, and they don't sperge-post nonsense like this thread.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#59 - 2012-07-11 17:19:50 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
Now that they are trying to do something (even if it is 100% destined to fail), you still mock them

Why would you NOT mock someone for proposing something that is "100% destined to fail" ?

Would you say "at least he is trying!" if I proposed eating ketchup with a spoon would solve world hunger?

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Zapphire
OBT.
#60 - 2012-07-11 17:23:57 UTC
YOU ARE

*fixed

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1613701&#post1613701